Reference to Scots In Old Book, and My Family Brainwashing

[Bugbear]

I came across an old book and found at it's beginning a reference to Scots. Pioneers of the Old Southwest: a chronicle of the dark and bloody ground (Chronicles of America series; vol. 18), by Constance Lindsay Skinner. It's in the public domain, and over at Project Gutenberg, but appears to have a date of, 1919.

The Ulster Presbyterians, or "Scotch-Irish," to whom history has ascribed the dominant role among the pioneer folk of the Old Southwest, began their migrations
to America in the latter years of the seventeenth century. It is not known with certainty precisely when or where the first immigrants of their race arrived
in this country, but soon after 1680 they were to be found in several of the colonies. ...

These Ulstermen did not come to the New World as novices in the shaping of society; they had already made history. Their ostensible object in America was
to obtain land, but, like most external aims, it was secondary to a deeper purpose. What had sent the Ulstermen to America was a passion for a whole freedom.
They were lusty men, shrewd and courageous, zealous to the death for an ideal and withal so practical to the moment in business that it soon came to be
commonly reported of them that "they kept the Sabbath and everything else they could lay their hands on," though it is but fair to them to add that this
phrase is current wherever Scots dwell. ...

It goes on a bit more with the introduction. I was looking at this writing in the context of the views of it's era, and looking for writings about Scots in the more western "Southwest" out here where I live; "Pioneers" and "Southwest" being what drew me to the title. It was still an interesting find because one side of my family claims to be partly descended from the "Scotch-Irish," as family members say it. I've become a bit skeptical of some of my families claims, though. They say they are "Scotch-Irish" without any understanding of what that means.


That's my confession, and I'm sticking to it.

* Should also add, the latest "Irish kilt" thread contributed to letting go of the old family myth.

[Pleater]

Kept the Sabbath and everything else -

I love that description.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[macwilkin]

Ted,

The "Southwest" referred to here is the "Old Southwest", which was composed of the modern states of Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee and parts of Florida and Louisiana. The area north of the Ohio was "The Old Northwest".

T.

[Bugbear]

Ted,

The "Southwest" referred to here is the "Old Southwest", which was composed of the modern states of Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee and parts of Florida and Louisiana. The area north of the Ohio was "The Old Northwest".

T.

Yes, that is made clear in the book. It wasn't exactly what I was looking for, but it's still interesting.

As best as I can figure, there are some long ago ancestors from Ireland, and somewhere that got confused with Scots-Irish in the family mythology.

[BoldHighlander]

As best as I can figure, there are some long ago ancestors from Ireland, and somewhere that got confused with Scots-Irish in the family mythology.

I can understand that Ted.

For many years I heard my Mom & her family refer to our Moore's as "Irish" & other times as "Scots-Irish". Finally, about 3 or 4 years ago I discovered the reason for all the confusion. It seems our Moore's (or O'More's as they were known in County Antrim), were Irish, but at one point one of my ancestors was born (in the 1500's) over the water in Glasgow, yet the family originated in Ireland.

Usually I run into it the other way around from your family. A lot of folks I know who claim to be "Irish", their ancestors were actually Scots-Irish.

[Bugbear]

Guess that means I should start wearing velvet knee breeches like Oscar Wilde.

He does come up in a neat book I have, How the West Was Worn: Bustles and Buckskins on the Wild Frontier by Chris Enss; Guilford CT: Globe Pequot, 2006.

When playwright Oscar Wilde made the long journey from London to California, he brought with him a flamboyant wardrobe. In 1882 he attracted large crowds
of settlers in Leadville, Colorado, who were interested in seeing Wilde's velvet knicker suit and flowing bow tie. His outrageous costume was made complete
with a high-crowned, large-brimmed cowboy hat and knee-high cowboy boots. Although men found his fashion sense questionable, women admired the frilly,
soft-collared shirts he wore, and they made patterns of the garment so they could replicate the design for themselves. (70)

So there's my Irish heritage.

[Bugbear]

All right, here is what happened, I wanted to double check.

Because there is an Irish surname involved, which is also a Scottish surname, somewhere along the line the family lore became that the family started in Scotland, moved to Ireland, lived there for a time becoming married into the Irish population, then moved to America. Looks like that branch of the family came from Ireland, and if there were Scottish roots, they were way, way back. There aren't even good explanations of how all this might have happened.

This misconception was then compounded by a misunderstanding of the term "Scots-Irish." Ulster Scots are not what my family were talking about.

Other branches on that side have been supposably traced back to people in America before the Revolution. I'm a little skeptical of that lore, too.

Guess I'll have to get a lein and brat...

Or maybe the velvet knee breeches...

[Lallans]

All right, here is what happened, I wanted to double check.

Because there is an Irish surname involved, which is also a Scottish surname, somewhere along the line the family lore became that the family started in Scotland, moved to Ireland, lived there for a time becoming married into the Irish population, then moved to America. Looks like that branch of the family came from Ireland, and if there were Scottish roots, they were way, way back. There aren't even good explanations of how all this might have happened.

This misconception was then compounded by a misunderstanding of the term "Scots-Irish." Ulster Scots are not what my family were talking about.

Other branches on that side have been supposably traced back to people in America before the Revolution. I'm a little skeptical of that lore, too.

Guess I'll have to get a lein and brat...

Or maybe the velvet knee breeches...

Unless I'm missing something, you're describing an entirely typical Scots-Irish family: starting in say 1600, Scottish settlers moved or were moved to Ireland (most often Ulster), spent a century or more there, and then moved on to the new world in circa 1700. When they arrived in America they were merely The Irish, but after the potato famine Irish arrived in vast numbers, the 'Scotch' (now 'Scots') tag was added on. Which was pretty fair because the two groups are distinct, both by custom and by choice. And I'll contribute the fact that some pretty weird 'origin' traditions in my own family were later either confirmed or greatly supported by research.

[Bugbear]

Unless I'm missing something, you're describing an entirely typical Scots-Irish family: starting in say 1600, Scottish settlers moved or were moved to Ireland (most often Ulster), spent a century or more there, and then moved on to the new world in circa 1700. When they arrived in America they were merely The Irish, but after the potato famine Irish arrived in vast numbers, the 'Scotch' (now 'Scots') tag was added on. Which was pretty fair because the two groups are distinct, both by custom and by choice. And I'll contribute the fact that some pretty weird 'origin' traditions in my own family were later either confirmed or greatly supported by research.

I didn't see your post before, sorry.

Well, it's difficult to be completely sure, in this case, other than it looks a whole lot more like this surname was adopted from the English during that time period... Anyway, it looks like they were culturally Irish before coming to America, and that is mainly what I am focused on. Also, this is one strand of the whole family tangle, there are plenty of other places and lines involved.

And I am only joking about lein and brats or velvet knee breeches.

[Lallans]

I didn't see your post before, sorry.

Well, it's difficult to be completely sure, in this case, other than it looks a whole lot more like this surname was adopted from the English during that time period... Anyway, it looks like they were culturally Irish before coming to America, and that is mainly what I am focused on. Also, this is one strand of the whole family tangle, there are plenty of other places and lines involved.

And I am only joking about lein and brats or velvet knee breeches.

People were transplanted to Ulster from both sides of the Anglo-Scottish border so an English ethnicity from that period is of course perfectly possible. The effort in large part seems to have been to reduce the ingrained fighting and general scrappiness of the people in the Border Marches following the union of the two kingdoms, so I would suggest that groups on both sides of the original border were culturally all but identical- certainly they seem to have switched sides just as readily as any group of people, historical or present-day, in the same situation. If you have a name that could be either English or Scottish or Scottish Lowlander, one way to decide which side your family would be on is to study where they landed in Ulster- for obvious reasons they usually weren't mixed in their new settlements.