Prince Charlie advice

[hot_rod29]

Hey guys,

I need some help. I'm planning to have my tailor build a PC jacket and the modern vest (not low cut) for me, he is excellent at copying pictures and taking advice from the customer about how they want their clothes constructed. I rented the set for my sister's wedding and didn't like the fit later in pictures... now I have the opportunity to have one made and fitted by a local tailor with full input to the construction. I want to make the most of the opportunity because their work on normal suits is impeccable.

I plan to go with Black
Which wool fabrics should I be looking at? (right now I have a sample of a super 120s, 12 oz. merino)
does anyone have a good link for seeing the different shapes the tails can be cut in?
Good source for buttons?
Construction techniques that I should be sure he is using?
ect...

[Cygnus]

If you're having the jacket tailor made for you, my recommendation would be to skip the Prince Charlie and go for the regulation doublet. The tashes are real attention getters without being too different from a dinner jacket or Prince Charlie coatee.

My thinking here is that (in my opinion) the regulation doublet is more versatile than the Prince Charlie in that it is great for black tie events and will add a bit of flair to your outfit, but it also has the added bonus of being in the same classification as the Montrose and Sheriffmuir doublets and so is also ideal for white-tie events.

You can take a PC up to white-tie level, too, it just tends to be outshone by these other doublets when you do.

Black, in my opinion, is the best choice of colour; though lots of folks prefer to have jackets and doublets made in the same material as their kilts (seems like a bit too much to me).

As for fabric, heavier is usually better as far as look goes because heavier fabric holds its shape better, won't wrinkle/crease as easily, etc. Heavier fabric is hotter, so you'll have to strike a balance between looks and comfort there. Barathea seems to be the norm.

I'm afraid I have little advice on construction methods, though Henderson Group Ltd. sells small and large jacket buttons. Just make sure the tashes aren't too far forward - because of the cut of the jacket and the fold of the lapels, having the tashes too far forward will usually lead to their weight pulling the jacket open and giving it a "bell" shape.

I'm anxious to see what you decide on and how it turns out (and the only way for me to see it is if you post pictures)!

[davidlpope]

If you're having the jacket tailor made for you, my recommendation would be to skip the Prince Charlie and go for the regulation doublet. The tashes are real attention getters without being too different from a dinner jacket or Prince Charlie coatee.

My thinking here is that (in my opinion) the regulation doublet is more versatile than the Prince Charlie in that it is great for black tie events and will add a bit of flair to your outfit, but it also has the added bonus of being in the same classification as the Montrose and Sheriffmuir doublets and so is also ideal for white-tie events.

You can take a PC up to white-tie level, too, it just tends to be outshone by these other doublets when you do.

***

David

[hot_rod29]

While I do have a linen suit, I'm not that worried about the heat. The kilt has built in ac after all! So I'll definitely be going with wool. If the Braemar Ghillie is truly suitable for Black Tie then I think I've found a winner. While I do like the look of the doublets I don't think they fit my style, but more importantly my fiance would not like them. She enjoys it when I wear my kilt and I don't want what I choose to wear with it making her uncomfortable. Plus with those I'm pretty limited in when I could wear them.

Hothir, if you could put me in touch with the mill that would be fantastic! My tailor is fairly limited in selection outside of traditional suitings and shirtings. The heavier wools appropriate to military and more formed jackets aren't really called for here.

I enjoyed what I've read so far at www.blacktieguide.com/ but I might have misspoken when I mentioned the "strict demands of fashion" what I was referring to was the fashion industry. To illustrate, I hate that women's clothes seem stuck in either the 50s or the 70s! Unless I'm really bumming around I'm pretty well dressed, I just don't care what the current fashion trend is. For example, my suits are 3 button, 3 piece, fitted cut with suspender buttons inside... even though I've been assured that is not the fashion this season. The suits are cleanly cut, elegant, with a timeless style and flatter my build. I don't care what so called designers are putting on the street this year, most of it is ugly IMHO.

I truly appreciate everyone's suggestions. Further insights into how the jacket should be constructed would be most helpful. Although after looking at the prices at MackinzieFrain I might have to give them a call if their quality is good?!

Lastly, is a Black (or other dark tone) silk cravat an acceptable alternative to the black bowtie for a black-tie event? I have a traditional self tie bowtie for black-tie. I just like the look of a cravat better, especially with the kilt.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Barathea is normally used to make formal jackets I can put you in touch with the mill so you can order it direct if your tailor is unable to source it for you.

If you go towards regulation instead of PC you'll want pictures of the tashes vas tails.

Buttons. http://www.threefeatherspewter.com/Buttons%20Celtic.htm (bottom of the page)
and http://www.highlandxpress.com/patterns.html middle of the page.

Generally making sure that your tailor is using sew in canvas interfacing vs fusible interfacing is a good starting point for determining whether they are using tried and true tailoring techniques vs making things along the lines of mass produced and often lower quality knockoffs.

[longhuntr74]

It is generally not considered acceptable to wear a 5 button waistcoat with a PC. 5 Button waistcoats are meant to wear with Argyll Jackets...with some exceptions.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

5 button waistcoats can also be worn with other more diverse styles of evening jackets including the regulation doublet and the Sheriffmuir. Our post were intended to suggest going for a more custom look vs. the PC so I didn't address the height of the waistcoat.

[Cygnus]

If "normal" black tie (i.e., not the Highland version) is any indicator, five-button waistcoats are quickly gaining popularity and acceptance. Some will turn their nose up at it, so be aware of that.

If you do decide to get white-tie accessories as well, your best bet is a three-button vest in white Marcella (pique) with a bowtie and wing-collar shirt in the same colour and material (the "correct" shirt is a shirt with a stiff or Marcella bib that accommodates a detachable collar, though these things are notoriously uncomfortable). You'd also need silver or white cufflinks and shirt studs.

[hot_rod29]

thanks for the ideas guys. You've given me a couple of new things to consider, and here is some additional info to base advice off of. If there is a white tie event I will be in uniform for at least the next several years (and my fiance is fond of pointing out that I will eventually thicken in the middle, at least a bit). So having a jacket that can do double duty by dressing it up, while a nice bonus, is not a necessity. Being able to dress it down however would be slightly more useful.

What makes a cloth Barathea? Is it the weave? I don't believe my cloth merchant or tailor have anything heavier than a 12oz. Additionally I live in the south and most likely won't be in too many cold places, thank the service that builds on the beach!

I'm getting this most specifically for the reception at my wedding. Military service and chapel, my male family members will be in kilts. I will change before the reception (my fiance likes my Whites!). And though my own taste is already for less flash, I definitely have to keep in mind that she should be the centerpiece of the day. A definite thank you for the link to MackinzieFrain! From what I can see I'm smitten with the look of the Braemar Ghillie, but how formal can you get with that, and are their better pictures somewhere showing front and back?

physically I'm 6' to 6'1" depending on who does the measurements, 39in chest and 30-31in waist. I prefer the 5 button vest because it emphasizes that build (for now) and I like the look.

If I'm not in a mandated uniform, my taste determines what I wear. Never fear for me being of weak opinion or swayed by the strict demands of fashion. If it looks good on me I'll go for it!

And speaking of dressing down, what do you think of putting small round button holes where the buttons attach? Some of my dress uniforms have buttons with small metal pins that clip through the loop on the button. Are there any plain colored buttons with the sewing loop on the back that could be swapped out for the silver ones to dress a jacket down?

[longhuntr74]

While I have no problem with individualism, I also think there is a proper time and place. In America, we regularly trample all over style and decorum all the time. It is one of the reasons we are often perceived as unrefined, crude, or vulgar in many parts of the world. I would challenge you to take the time to learn the ins and outs of formal attire first...then go from there. This is a great link that I learned alot from:
www.blacktieguide.com/

It can be applied to military uniforms and formal kilt wear as well. I don't mean to come across as snobbish or anal retentive...I'm actually quite the opposite. I just have strong feelings about proper attire for the proper event and have seen way too many of my peers show up at formal events improperly dressed. I'm always embarrassed for them...or ashamed of them...not sure which. Every outfit will be judged on it's own merits.

Regarding your last post, however, it sounds like you should forget the PC altogether. It is, to the best of my knowledge, only a tuxedo/formal jacket and not generally "dressed down". An Argyll, Braemar, or Crail style of jacket are among the most versatile types of jackets for what you are looking for. The black Argyll specifically can be worn with everything from a tattersall shirt and wool tie with no vest to black tie. Being an active duty Army officer I'm very much in the same boat as you...about every formal event I go to requires me to wear my uniform. I attended a Valentine's day dance this year that I wore a cut-down suitcoat and vest to. That is currently my only jacket for kilt wear. I am in the process of acquiring a black Argyll and a more formal jacket (as you saw from my 1822 coatee thread). Don't know that I'll have the occasion to wear it anytime soon...but I'll sure look for that opportunity! I like dressing up...I guess that makes my wife and I unusual...She hates it.