James

[Old Hippie]

A recent comment by one of our Francophone brethren started me thinking about this again. There's a bit of a set-up, but I need to check my understanding.

What I *think* I know is that the Gaelic equivalent of "James" is "Seumas," pronounced more-or-less like "SHAY-oo-mass." When addressing Seumas, lenition would apply such that "Seumas" becomes "a Sheumais" which, as I understand it, would be pronounced roughly "ah HEY-oo-maish" or, if an Anglophone heard it, they might hear "Hamish."

Which causes me to wonder about naming, if names like Shamus and Hamish really come from the same root. Further, given that Hamish appears already lenited, would further lenition be applied, or would a Gaelic speaker simply say "Hamish" the way they might say "Ahmed" or "Jorge," names from another language that may defy attempts to translate them into Gaelic?

The comment that started this whole chain of association was addressing Hamish as "Monsieur Jambon" or "Mister Ham." I appreciate the implicit pun on Hamish, who's often addressed as "Ham."

Am I just thinking too much? Should I be spending more time in the Laphroaig?

:ootd:

[figheadair]

A recent comment by one of our Francophone brethren started me thinking about this again. There's a bit of a set-up, but I need to check my understanding.

What I *think* I know is that the Gaelic equivalent of "James" is "Seumas," pronounced more-or-less like "SHAY-oo-mass." When addressing Seumas, lenition would apply such that "Seumas" becomes "a Sheumais" which, as I understand it, would be pronounced roughly "ah HEY-oo-maish" or, if an Anglophone heard it, they might hear "Hamish."

Which causes me to wonder about naming, if names like Shamus and Hamish really come from the same root. Further, given that Hamish appears already lenited, would further lenition be applied, or would a Gaelic speaker simply say "Hamish" the way they might say "Ahmed" or "Jorge," names from another language that may defy attempts to translate them into Gaelic?

The comment that started this whole chain of association was addressing Hamish as "Monsieur Jambon" or "Mister Ham." I appreciate the implicit pun on Hamish, who's often addressed as "Ham."

Am I just thinking too much? Should I be spending more time in the Laphroaig?

:ootd:

Not quite sure that I follow your penultimate paragraph .

In Gaelic there is no such name as Hamish, Vari, Gonnal etc. There are, as you imply, all Anglicised attempts/errors to render the vocative of the root names.

In a familiar setting i.e. family conversation the full vocative is usually elided further so ones hears Hamish, Vari etc.

[Old Hippie]

Not quite sure that I follow your penultimate paragraph .

No problem. What I was aiming toward was the thought (as you say below) that there is no "Hamish" in Gaelic, that it is merely how Seumas' name is pronounced when addressing him directly. Sometimes (often!) my brain goes off at a tangent when a casual comment touches on something I've been mulling over.

In Gaelic there is no such name as Hamish, Vari, Gonnal etc. There are, as you imply, all Anglicised attempts/errors to render the vocative of the root names.

In a familiar setting i.e. family conversation the full vocative is usually elided further so ones hears Hamish, Vari etc.

I have a passingly casual interest in several languages -- Gaelic, Maori and Chinook -- mainly because it's interesting to me to see how they deal with relations between people and with complex actions performed between people and things. As a speaker of any of them beyond what is essentially "howdy," I'm bloody useless.

:ootd:

[beloitpiper]

Certain names can't be aspirated (such as Hamish), so you don't really worry about it too much when speaking as Gaeilge.

[figheadair]

Certain names can't be aspirated (such as Hamish), so you don't really worry about it too much when speaking as Gaeilge.

Hamish is not a name but is already the aspirated form of Seumas. Names beginnng with a vowel; Iain, Eoin etc, don't aspirate. Some others do but there's no real change in pronunciation; Ruaraidh to Rhuaraidh etc,.

[castledangerous]

I love how my name, Micheal sounds aspirated -- "wickle"

[MacBean]

James is a language study by itself. Isn't the name a variant of Jacob? Look at the Spanish-Portuguese Tiago, Diego, or Jaco, Gaelic Seumus or Shay, not to mention English Jim, French Jacques.

[Dale Seago]

James is a language study by itself. Isn't the name a variant of Jacob?

"Ye Jacobites by name,
Lend an ear, lend an ear. . ."