Scotland's Shame

[Jimmy]

Sectaranism has always been in Scotland for centuries, it has been called Scotland's Shame by many top politicians.
Recently this has come to the fore with the Scottish Parliament attempting to bring about new laws to penalise anyone participating in sectaranism.
but here is a new one for our members and possibly of interest to Mr. Newsome who brought about the St. Ninians tartan



http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot...#ixzz1eQFANZ8k

[creagdhubh]

I back the supporters in this case; the police actions were rather "over the top." I mean, come on!

Cheers,

[M. A. C. Newsome]

That's just sad. Have we really reached that point where displaying an image of the pope on a scarf is considered a danger for "potentially causing a riot?" Really?

[piperdbh]

Being a non-Scot, I don't know much about this subject, but I wonder how much of it really has to do with the differing beliefs of Catholics and Protestants, and how much of it has to do other issues, such as which team to cheer for.

[O'Callaghan]

Being a non-Scot, I don't know much about this subject, but I wonder how much of it really has to do with the differing beliefs of Catholics and Protestants, and how much of it has to do other issues, such as which team to cheer for.

That's rather the point. In a Celtic v Rangers game there is absolute identity between religious affiliation and which team the fans root for. They are the same. Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers. If there had been a riot, untangling whether it was religious or team related would necessarily be entirely impossible.

ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Whilst it might have been unwise to have worn a scarf with the Pope's likeness on it, I do sympathise with the fan, as it was a commemorative scarf and obviously of sentimental value, and honestly, an ordinary Celtic scarf would be as much of a red rag to some Rangers fans.

Bear in mind that whilst my user name would be obviously Catholic to Scottish football fans, I am in fact an atheist, and my background is a mixture of English Protestant, English agnostic/atheist and Irish Catholic. Mind you, a lot of Scottish Catholics are of Irish descent anyway. Frankly, I would stay well away from a Celtic/Rangers match myself.

[Sheep In Wolf's Clothing]

Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers.
ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Was this from my post? You are correct about the usual team/religious affiliations. I just clumsily assumed that people knew that, and I was just trying to show that sometimes the team loyalties don't fall down the religious lines people normally assume. (and that supporters can get along regardless)

Sorry it's been a long day!
Sara

[Peter Crowe]

That's rather the point. In a Celtic v Rangers game there is absolute identity between religious affiliation and which team the fans root for. They are the same. Catholics are for Celtic and Protestants are for Rangers. If there had been a riot, untangling whether it was religious or team related would necessarily be entirely impossible.

ETA: Seems I am wrong, from the post above.

Whilst it might have been unwise to have worn a scarf with the Pope's likeness on it, I do sympathise with the fan, as it was a commemorative scarf and obviously of sentimental value, and honestly, an ordinary Celtic scarf would be as much of a red rag to some Rangers fans.

Bear in mind that whilst my user name would be obviously Catholic to Scottish football fans, I am in fact an atheist, and my background is a mixture of English Protestant, English agnostic/atheist and Irish Catholic. Mind you, a lot of Scottish Catholics are of Irish descent anyway. Frankly, I would stay well away from a Celtic/Rangers match myself.

Well Yes and No.......

The motivations of the fans are a bit more complex than just a simple difference in religious belief. Many people who disavow actual religious belief, but use those denominational labels because of their family's denominational tradition (and perceived ethnic heritage) support either team. As I stated before it has an aspect of loyalty to the group within which one was brought up regardless of actual belief in matters of theology and church doctrine. An element of this group loyalty is also complicated by affiliation and identification (to various degrees) with either side of the politico-religious conflict in Northern Ireland (Ireland as a whole before 1921), going back to the Ulster crisis of 1912. I also know fans of Celtic who claim to be atheist Marxists but support the Hoops because they perceive them to have stronger proletarian credentials than the Light Blues.

It is also my experience that the vast majority of people who have religious faith, and take it seriously (whether Protestant or Roman Catholic) and who may or may not identify with either team are not sectarian bigots. Not all Old Firm fans are bigoted knuckledraggers, in fact the vast majority are anything but. I personally stopped supporting Rangers in the late 1990's because I felt (as one of the silent majority) that my continued silent support amounted to acquiescence and approval of certain songs and the sectarian views they express.

[davidg]

That's just sad. Have we really reached that point where displaying an image of the pope on a scarf is considered a danger for "potentially causing a riot?" Really?

Unfortunately the answer is yes, in some areas. Whilst sectarianism has largely disappeared there are still areas where those of the "wrong" religion cannot venture. Fortunately though most of us have a little more sense and can get along with each other

[Jock Scot]

Unfortunately the answer is yes, in some areas. Whilst sectarianism has largely disappeared there are still areas where those of the "wrong" religion cannot venture. Fortunately though most of us have a little more sense and can get along with each other

I am ashamed to say that what you say does have a firm basis. I am also proud to say that more often than not, your last sentence is spot on.

[Peter Crowe]

I am ashamed to say that what you say does have a firm basis. I am also proud to say that more often than not, your last sentence is spot on.

Very true on both counts Jock! Being from the West of Scotland, I grew up acutely aware of this issue (at least from the age of five). My parents (both Christians and communicant members of the Church of Scotland) discountenanced sectarianism as iniquitous and a distortion of Christianity. Moreover, despite the popularity of the Old Firm the silent (moral) majority of folk in West Central Scotland are not sectarian bigots.

Piperdbh, I have to also say the problem of sectarianism is deeper than just a football (soccer) derby. Football has become the primary vehicle by which some bigots justify their prejudices, but their prejudices are rooted within certain elements of society. This is where I think the current government initiative is deficient, in that it (rightly) attacks the symptoms of the problem without engaging 'civic' Scotland on how to eradicate sectarian bigotry and prejudice at it's root.

(I apologise if I have given any cause for offence to anyone on this topic, if I have it is entirely unintentional because I believe in pluralism, tolerance, and civility.)