Waistcoat fit

[Tobus]

When I look at historical portraits and photographs, I see men wearing waistcoats that are very snug. I might even describe it as tight. But when I see modern men wearing waistcoats, they seem to be loose, almost on the verge of being too big around for them.

What happened?

Is it that our cultural sense of vanity changed and men are larger around in the middle than they were in bygone days, which makes them avoid wearing snug waistcoats? Or is there some other explanation which eludes me?

It seems to me that the vast majority of waistcoat-wearers these days are simply wearing them too loosely. And it doesn't look nearly as natural or as good as snug ones.

Or am I way off base?

[Highlander31]

I found when I first started wearing three piece suits, the vest was adjustable. It seemed no matter what I did, the vest would not fit correctly. My solution was to take them to a tailor. Two hours later, I had a vest that was fitted to me, and the annoying adjusting strap was relegated to the trash. I eventually went to custom suits, eliminating the problem altogether.

[Peter Crowe]

When I look at historical portraits and photographs, I see men wearing waistcoats that are very snug. I might even describe it as tight. But when I see modern men wearing waistcoats, they seem to be loose, almost on the verge of being too big around for them.

What happened?

Is it that our cultural sense of vanity changed and men are larger around in the middle than they were in bygone days, which makes them avoid wearing snug waistcoats? Or is there some other explanation which eludes me?

It seems to me that the vast majority of waistcoat-wearers these days are simply wearing them too loosely. And it doesn't look nearly as natural or as good as snug ones.

Or am I way off base?

I think you are correct Tobus. I imagine that waistcoats of old were more often bespoke too.

I would add that since living in the US I have become aware of differences between what is called English (UK) tailoring and American tailoring. American cut jackets tend to be boxier with big shoulders and wide arm holes with centre vents. English style tends to be more fitted with higher, narrower arm holes and double-vented. Continental (especially Italian) style tend to be cut somewhere between the two and unvented. Companies like Brooks Brothers offer a choice between American and English styling on their bespoke range. Most kilt jackets (although shorter) I have conform to the cut of the English style.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Most of the men in the historical portraits and photographs you see are wearing clothing that was made for them - i.e. to their measurements and body shape.

The phenomenon of going to a store and buying clothing made in a "standard size" off the rack (and hoping it will fit you right!) is a relatively recent innovation, historically speaking.

The truth is that very few people come in a "standard size." Everyone is a little bit different. And even if we think that a standard size fits "well enough" part of that may simply be how we have been conditioned by years and years of wearing standard sizes. This is how we "think" clothes are meant to fit.

I recently had a shirt tailor made to my measurements. It fits rather snugly compared to the many shirts in my closet that were purchased off the rack. But it fits well. I can move around easily in it. So in no way would I say it was "too tight." But rather, all my other shirts are too loose in one area or the other. To get the right neck size and sleeve length that I require, my shirts are typically too large in the bicep and around the waist. I've just gotten used to it, because that's how standard size shirts fit on me. Until I had a shirt actually made-to-measure, I didn't know the different.

I suspect something similar may be what you are noticing in the waistcoats.

That, and I notice that even today American men tend to wear their shirts and jackets much in a much looser fit than their British and European counterparts. This is why many American men are advised to "order a size up" when they order kilt jackets made in the UK. It's not that the UK sizing is measured any differently, it is simply that most Americans expect a looser fit in their jackets than British men do. We are not used to that tailored look.

[Ryan Ross]

I recently had a shirt tailor made to my measurements. It fits rather snugly compared to the many shirts in my closet that were purchased off the rack. But it fits well. I can move around easily in it. So in no way would I say it was "too tight." But rather, all my other shirts are too loose in one area or the other. To get the right neck size and sleeve length that I require, my shirts are typically too large in the bicep and around the waist. I've just gotten used to it, because that's how standard size shirts fit on me. Until I had a shirt actually made-to-measure, I didn't know the different.

Boy, do I know what you're talking about, come to the standard sizes not fitting. I've been thinking recently on having a shirt made for me, just to see what it was like... currently my chest measurement is 13 inches larger than my waist, so you can imagine how much extra shirt fabric I usually have hanging around. Literally.

[longhuntr74]

I found when I first started wearing three piece suits, the vest was adjustable. It seemed no matter what I did, the vest would not fit correctly. My solution was to take them to a tailor. Two hours later, I had a vest that was fitted to me, and the annoying adjusting strap was relegated to the trash. I eventually went to custom suits, eliminating the problem altogether.

Like all the other responses so far, I agree that "off the rack" clothing is cut too large...and most men buy to large a size on top of that. The best advice I've seen recently on buying a jacket...that I have since adopted as my rule...is to find the jacket where the shoulders fit comfortably/roomy...and then buy one size smaller. It results in a jacket that fits my waist and body better, though it might start out a bit snug in the shoulders. It just takes some getting used to a feeling of a tighter fit, as Matt has mentioned about his recent purchase of a made to measure shirt.

Boy, do I know what you're talking about, come to the standard sizes not fitting. I've been thinking recently on having a shirt made for me, just to see what it was like... currently my chest measurement is 13 inches larger than my waist, so you can imagine how much extra shirt fabric I usually have hanging around. Literally.

Ryan...I'm right there with you! Even "Tailored" or "Athletic" fit shirts are too big in the waist. 44" chest and 32" waist doesn't come "off the rack". I just ordered three shirts from Charles Tyrwhitt today in their "Slim" fit option. The chest measurement they quote seems as if it will be about perfect...the waist measurement could be about 2" smaller. If I were to go to their "tailored" fit, the waist would be about perfect...but the the chest also gets 2" smaller...which would be a non-starter...buttons pulling every time you moved. Just this weekend I altered three of my "off the rack" button down shirts by putting darts in the back and taking about 5-6" out of the waist of each, depending on starting measurements.

Oh...and back on the topic...I find that I have to buy a size smaller vest (medium vs. large) when buying them...and even then, they are frequently an inch or two too long. I always feel like they need to be taken in at the shoulders.

[Ryan Ross]

Ryan...I'm right there with you! Even "Tailored" or "Athletic" fit shirts are too big in the waist. 44" chest and 32" waist doesn't come "off the rack". I just ordered three shirts from Charles Tyrwhitt today in their "Slim" fit option. The chest measurement they quote seems as if it will be about perfect...the waist measurement could be about 2" smaller. If I were to go to their "tailored" fit, the waist would be about perfect...but the the chest also gets 2" smaller...which would be a non-starter...buttons pulling every time you moved. Just this weekend I altered three of my "off the rack" button down shirts by putting darts in the back and taking about 5-6" out of the waist of each, depending on starting measurements.

Oh...and back on the topic...I find that I have to buy a size smaller vest (medium vs. large) when buying them...and even then, they are frequently an inch or two too long. I always feel like they need to be taken in at the shoulders.

Heh- Yep. Misery loves company.

But indeed, all that sounds quite familiar, save that I don't yet have the skills with needle and thread to start messing with my shirts.

And I can sometimes have the same trouble as you with vests too, actually. Too long.

EDIT: I'm 46" and 33", so we really are looking at almost an identical problem... I'm wondering if the vest issue is height or build... or a little of both. I'm 6'. Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

[NeightRG]

Every button down shirt I own that fits my chest and shoulders comfortably once had way too much fabric around my middle. I matched up the measurements of a shirt that fit well on top to one that matched well on the bottom, made a template, and now I buy shirts to fit my shoulders, and take in the bottom to fit.
I've always had the same problem with vests - tight at the top button, and loose on the bottom. Even at times I've had more of a gut. Strange thing is that until this conversation went from vests to shirts, I never thought to try that trick with a vest.

But back to the point of the original post, I agree strongly that it's largely a matter of off-the-shelf versus tailor-made. And now in a perverted case of art imitating life, I'm sure tailored garments are expected to fit more like the off-the-rack clothing that people are used to.

[RAF]

I love a nice waistcoat, and I too prefer mine to be more fitted. I'm always on the lookout for any that fit well and that are affordable. (So often the ones that I like I find are over $125 which makes the search challenging.)
The issue of how "modern" dress is worn so loosely today is one that I'm constantly frustrated by. I've never understood, nor liked the "gangsta" influence on men's style. Pants below the butt - underwear showing, or shirts and tees so big that they hang to or below the knees. And just overall general sloppiness not becoming of any gentleman. Again, I digress and find myself delving into the psychology of clothing...
I'm all for comfort, but I just don't see these clothes as flattering for any body type. I'm reminded of a previous thread here on X discussing the merits of overdressing vs. underdressing. I'd much rather stand out for looking "too good" than for looking like I don't care.
To get back on track, it was mentioned that men of yore were perhaps smaller than they are today. While that's true to an extent, we have all seen pictorial examples of men of girth throughout history. And, it has also been said, any man of means would have had his clothes made to measure. "Proper" fit has become somewhat subjective it would seem. In this respect, I find myself decidedly old school. Altering one's own items is a great idea, if you have the skill. Unfortunately, I do not, so I must rely on my tailor.
So much for a "quick reply!" :-)

[thescot]

I do believe that part of the problem you mention relates to the fact that most of us in the US are pigs--way too fat. I put myself in the porcine category, although I've lost about 25 pounds this year. I still need to lose another 20 or so!

As a result of our oversized girth, we have come to wear clothes that hide the pot bellies resulting in baggy, saggy clothes. Add to that the off-the-rack , no size fits anyone mentality, and you have a bunch of poorly dressed buggers running around looking like slobs.

I have resolved to do better in my dotage. Jeans and boots are one thing, but real clothes will require a bit more tailoring in the future. Quality shirts that actually fit are not so hard to come by if you are willing to look. And you can even find made-to-measure suits online that are relatively inexpensive. (you may have to have a tailor do a bit of refining, but it's a minor anoyance.)