An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[SlackerDrummer]

"Jock",

I have read your two recent surveys with great interest as well as many of the comments in the recent thread regarding the diaspora v. native Scots. One thing that came up both places and that comes up in many of your posts is the idea of non-Scots "playing at being a Scot" and you and many of your survey participants seem absolutely befuddled at the idea of folks outwith Scotland wearing the kilt. So I have a question for you. If one of your sons were presented with the opportunity to take a well-paying job in America (and took it), should he leave his kilt in Scotland? And should he decide to stay (God forbid), should he abandon passing this traditional garb to his children? Would you be okay with your grandkids not having this cultural connection to you?

I hope I don't seem like I'm being disrespectful, because I'm not. I just wonder if a lot of this particular attitude that we see from native Scots is because they aren't looking at it from a personal perspective. Maybe they are. That's why I'm asking.

Best,

[Jock Scot]

"Jock",

I have read your two recent surveys with great interest as well as many of the comments in the recent thread regarding the diaspora v. native Scots. One thing that came up both places and that comes up in many of your posts is the idea of non-Scots "playing at being a Scot" and you and many of your survey participants seem absolutely befuddled at the idea of folks outwith Scotland wearing the kilt. So I have a question for you. If one of your sons were presented with the opportunity to take a well-paying job in America (and took it), should he leave his kilt in Scotland? And should he decide to stay (God forbid), should he abandon passing this traditional garb to his children? Would you be okay with your grandkids not having this cultural connection to you?

I hope I don't seem like I'm being disrespectful, because I'm not. I just wonder if a lot of this particular attitude that we see from native Scots is because they aren't looking at it from a personal perspective. Maybe they are. That's why I'm asking.

Best,

Actually I answered a theoretical question about this not so long ago except my brother was the subject of example.

In truth it is down to my son to decide what he would do. As he was one of those(and his two brothers) who answered the F4T2 survey I think I can answer with some accuracy. In passing, I could not have answered accurately before the survey. I am pretty sure the kilt would be left at home and should he (and I presume his children would do the same but I am not sure how the procedure works) take American citizenship then I would not expect them to wear the kilt. I would cut my son some slack if he returned home on holiday, but I would not expect his children ever to wear the kilt.

Should they all retain British citizenship then it seems that they would wear the kilt in the Highlands-----well until the children(my grand children) were old enough to decide for themselves.

[SlackerDrummer]

Thanks, Jock.

[McClef]

If the wearing of the kilt was truly limited to Highlanders and only in Scotland then there would be no need for international forums such as this.

That, Jock, I am afraid is the logical conclusion of your survey results.

[Jock Scot]

If the wearing of the kilt was truly limited to Highlanders and only in Scotland then there would be no need for international forums such as this.

That, Jock, I am afraid is the logical conclusion of your survey results.

Logical perhaps, we all know that the cat is out of the bag and there is nothing any one, not even a Highlander , can do about it.

So what to do? Well you can take a "dog in the manger attitude " or you can try to get those outwith Scotland to understand that the kilt is not just a piece of clothing and some Scots are troubled by this way of thinking.

All I am pointing out to those that are willing to read what I and others are saying, with an open mind that there are real---very real----- reservations, misconceptions about the kilt. For example the "honour" thing, the "flattery" thing, the "I can wear the kilt how I damn well like" thing, the "no one can tell me how, when and where I like" stuff.

I quite accept that those that don't care are a lost cause. I quite accept that all this is a two way thing, but unless someone points out these reservations and that these preconceived ideas are in fact unsound, then no one is going to get anywhere and that is at the very least is not helpful all round.

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

[Bugbear]

Logical perhaps, we all know that the cat is out of the bag and there is nothing any one, not even a Highlander , can do about it.

So what to do? Well you can take a "dog in the manger attitude " or you can try to get those outwith Scotland to understand that the kilt is not just a piece of clothing and some Scots are troubled by this way of thinking.

All I am pointing out to those that are willing to read what I and others are saying, with an open mind that there are real---very real----- reservations, misconceptions about the kilt. For example the "honour" thing, the "flattery" thing, the "I can wear the kilt how I damn well like" thing, the "no one can tell me how, when and where I like" stuff.

I quite accept that those that don't care are a lost cause. I quite accept that all this is a two way thing, but unless someone points out these reservations and that these preconceived ideas are in fact unsound, then no one is going to get anywhere and that is at the very least is not helpful all round.

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

I have listened, Jock, and I no longer wear tartan or the kilt of Highland attire. We have our own version of a non-tartan kilt over here, but it has nothing to do with Highland attire.

[O'Searcaigh]

Logical perhaps, ...we all know that the cat is out of the bag and there is nothing any one, not even a Highlander , can do about it.

So what to do? Well you can take a "dog in the manger attitude " or you can try to get those outwith Scotland to understand that the kilt is not just a piece of clothing and some Scots are troubled by this way of thinking.

All I am pointing out to those that are willing to read what I and others are saying, with an open mind that there are real---very real----- reservations, misconceptions about the kilt. For example the "honour" thing, the "flattery" thing, the "I can wear the kilt how I damn well like" thing, the "no one can tell me how, when and where I like" stuff.

I quite accept that those that don't care are a lost cause. I quite accept that all this is a two way thing, but unless someone points out these reservations and that these preconceived ideas are in fact unsound, then no one is going to get anywhere and that is at the very least is not helpful all round.

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

Jock -- there is indeed much "food for thought" in the above and in some of your subsequent postings in this thread but not only is some of it "hard to digest," it is even hard to swallow. It does not seem that in saying: "all I am pointing out..." you simply want to make us aware that there are some Scots who have attitudes such as you express. That is trivially true since you are a Scot and you have expressed and are again expressing them. Of course we are aware that there are lots and lots of people who think other people shouldn't be thinking or doing what they are thinking and doing, no matter what it is. No, what you do is move from expressing the opinion (which I share) that "the kilt is not just [another] piece of clothing" to what seems a rather less than respectful (some might even say, insulting) disparagement of those who may genuinely regard their kilt wearing as an "'honor' thing" or "'flattery' thing" and to suggest even that their thinking is somehow "unsound" -- with perhaps the insinuation that yours is the truly sound position? It would not surprise me in the least if such people felt that their love of the kilt, its and their heritage and even their own reasoning powers had not in some way been insulted. Moreover, in order to be sound an argument or position must be logically valid and all its assertions true. I dare say that this whole discussion is so fraught with logical fallacies and false assertions as to render any claims about soundness to be themselves unsound. Any argument that tries to move from or equate citizenship with nationality or either of those with ethnicity, let alone ancestral pride, has committed some serious errors of ambiguity and relevance. You are of course entitled to your opinion -- you do indeed have a right to your "point of view," but having that right does not make your opinion or point of view right. If one seriously wants to make claims to having a soundly reasoned position, then one must appeal to objective facts presented in a logically valid way. Otherwise, all we have are expressions of personal emotion, understandable though they may be. There is a huge difference between saying "this is how I feel" and "this is the way it is -- or should be." I sincerely and genuinely respect your feelings but without a more soundly argued appeal to facts, I'm afraid that's all this is -- your expression of your feelings. They are important, you are entitled to them and I respect them; they do not, however, automatically trump the contrary views or feelings of others. Perhaps in the end all we can do is respectfully agree to disagree. In any case, Bless you Jock -- I sincerely appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.

[Blake Roth]

I am reminded of a lesson of history: sometimes those who go to Rome do what the Romans do and then surpass that; were notable invaders of the numerous wars in Ireland not known for "turning Turk/going native", as it were, and becoming more Irish than the Irish?
The Scots in general have a tremendously emminent reputation for numerous qualities that many, many wish to emulate as well. Those people attracted to the Scotic stereotype start on a very simplistic, easy-to-achieve premise that clothes make the man, I reckon. I'll admitt, even I hold to that; I just expound upon that to other advanced levels based on my personal appraisal of history here in the former provinces and my rank within the worldview I believe evolved from that and the sage advise offered here on Xmarks. Everyone has their own reasons and links theirs to that of the stereotype that they receive as their first take of what it is to be like a Scot.
Playing is, in the natural world, a process by which the young or un-initiated learn to gradually mature to function properly in the world, acquiring the necessary skills to thrive in life. Most of those who wear The Kilt and 'stumble' are just beginning; we here on the forum know this and understand this. Those competent individuals the world over are products of an atavism really, allow me to explain.
Just as my relations left the Ulster plantations centuries ago I can't really claim that the numerous Irish rebellions and independence affected them the same way as those who remained on the island. They cut themselves off in time and evolved socially by a different route. This point agrees with Jock's conclusion. But, those events have gravity to those who CARE about them; one common aspect I've found amongst the Kilties here is that to some extent, each is an amateur historian to some degree and takes great heed to know what he/she wears. Part of being human is that we can influence the environments in which we live and conversely, choose which environments effect us whether directly or indirectly. Fellow historically removed ex-pats and myself choose to "go native" the old way I believe, tastefully and not in the vein of the image espoused in George IV's reign. Those who cherish change and renewal as a part of the natural order, blend aspects of the two environments (I intimate UtiliKilts, their kin and the set of attire corresponding to them by this).
Anyone, regardless of birth, nationality, creed, or whatever can wear The Kilt. I like when others wear The Kilt like myself, but I hold the fact that not everyone does dearly; I hope that I never find myself a member of the majority. I, like others, revel in being among the unique. To everyone who wears The Kilt sincerely, no matter the style, The Kilt is NOT just a different choice for lower body wear, it's more than just a heritage factor, it's a choice at creating the individual and imparting meaning and substance.

Blake E. Roth Esq.

[Danwell]

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

My issue with the first part of this paragraph is that a number of the questions in both the original and the subsequent survey are loaded and asked from a point of view which skews the results.

As for the rest of your posts - that any one person can, at any point, presume to direct others (whether explicitly, or as in your case, largely implicitly) on the way in which they honour their ancestors (or choose to wear a certain garment) is absolutely ridiculous. I've been lurking around these forums for a few years now, and have seen post after post after post of yours made up of disparaging remarks about those who were born outside of Scotland who choose to wear a kilt, modern, traditional or otherwise. Snide comments are included into huge paragraphs of text justifying your point of view and pretending that you're not insulted when you see kilts worn outside the Highlands. The fact that you've made these two threads alone shows that you're not just happy for everyone to accept that different points of view exist; you're doing your best to show all of us that the Scots don't think we have a right to wear a kilt. From the "It's just not done" comments to the "The way we Scots do it" posts.....they're all pushing the same agenda.

Maybe a degree of acceptance from your side of the pond is called for as well. After all, this is an international kilt forum, and wouldn't exist but for the interest of those outside Scotland. To most a kilt is just another piece of clothing, and should be worn by as many people want to in any way they see fit, regardless of the location or ancestry. At least, that's my point of view.

[kilted scholar]

Actually I answered a theoretical question about this not so long ago except my brother was the subject of example.

In truth it is down to my son to decide what he would do. As he was one of those(and his two brothers) who answered the F4T2 survey I think I can answer with some accuracy. In passing, I could not have answered accurately before the survey. I am pretty sure the kilt would be left at home and should he (and I presume his children would do the same but I am not sure how the procedure works) take American citizenship then I would not expect them to wear the kilt. I would cut my son some slack if he returned home on holiday, but I would not expect his children ever to wear the kilt.

Should they all retain British citizenship then it seems that they would wear the kilt in the Highlands-----well until the children(my grand children) were old enough to decide for themselves.

On that basis the London Scottish should no longer have kilts, the Caledonian ball in London should cease forthwith - and so on and so forth ad infinitum!!!