Traditonal vs. Historical

[Sir Didymous]

This is something that I have been pondering on and looking for clues to the answer for some time now. How far back can one go before a style turns from "traditional" into "historical"? I have gathered that great kilts, no matter how fond of them I may be, are considered anachronistic at best. But what of things like garter ties and sgians on the outside of the hose? Or the use of day plaids? What about shirts with ruffles and box pleated kilts? As someone with an eye for historical fashion, these lines are a bit blurred to me. I have been on here for about a year now and have, I feel worked out a reasonable understanding, but I am trying to find a series of guidelines for use when talking to other reenactors or rennies turned kilties.

[xman]

Traditional is the term we use for 'serious' Highland attire, or what you would think of as such. It's "How it has been done" for over a hundred years.
Historical would be box pleats and great kilts and the change is generally around Queen Vic I think. Reenactors should be interested in this.
Anachronistic is what you see at Ren Faires and includes strange leather vests and pirate shirts that have nothing to do with reality. That's very recent.

[RockyR]

As a shorthand response, I'd say:

Historical means it WAS done in the past, but is no longer in common use / practice.

Traditional means it's been done a certain way for quite some time and continues to be done that way today.

Using this loose definition, Great Kilts would fall under "historical" as they're not seen being worn that way for the most part (except at Renn Faires and costume type events).

PC Jacket / Vest image of a man in a kilt would fall under the "traditional" definition as you can see pictures of that outfit from the 50's as well as today.

The GREY area would be things like the Jabot... While this comment may RUFFLE a few feathers (bad pun intended), Jabots are not COMMONLY worn today, though they do still exist and are worn by select few. IMHO, they're on their way from the 'traditional' category into the 'historical' category.

[creagdhubh]

Historical:



Traditional:

[Gryphon noir]

Definitely falls on the "anachronism" side of the imaginary shifting line of distinction....though not without a couple of twists!

[Geoff Withnell]

And things can go either way. Box pleated kilts were well on their way to being "historical" but with the fair number of kilt makers and kilt wearers going to them these days, maybe they are (at least tartan box pleats) on the way to being "traditional" again.

[Tobus]

As a shorthand response, I'd say:

Historical means it WAS done in the past, but is no longer in common use / practice.

Traditional means it's been done a certain way for quite some time and continues to be done that way today.

I think that definition is perfect, Rocky. Of course, there will always be squabbles over what defines "common" or "quite some time". But 99% of people probably agree on what those terms mean. It's only the kilt geeks (a term I invoke affectionately) who will disagree on these minor details.

[davidlpope]

But what of things like garter ties and sgians on the outside of the hose?

Can you provide an example (not from a highland outfitter catalog) of a sgian dubh being worn outside the hose?

[Sir Didymous]

Can you provide an example (not from a highland outfitter catalog) of a sgian dubh being worn outside the hose?

Though the only image on this thread is from a catalog, there are references to seeing it done in posts 14, 16, and 21 of this thread.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...ed-hose-79415/

I also have a weathered non-clan tartan box pleated kilt that is lined and such, but has two buttons that hold it on as opposed to buckles. The buttons are covered by the belt when it is worn, or otherwise by the waistcoat (as I always have on one or the other). So I'm not sure if it would fit the historical/ traditional blend experiment that I have been toying with, or if it would fit within the traditional.

[Jock Scot]

Can you provide an example (not from a highland outfitter catalog) of a sgian dubh being worn outside the hose?

My uncles used to wear their SD on the outside of their hose, from time to time, when wearing formal attire. I cannot remember my father ever following his brothers on this though.