Thicken your skin...develop a sense of humor...and just chill out.

[rondo]

Over the past several days a number of posts in several threads have been rude, dismissive, and antagonistic. Comments made in jest have been taken literally, people have questioned other's right to wear a kilt to a particular function, or in a particular fashion, and some have implied the kilt only belongs to Scots, Highland Scots.

People...get over yourselves. Until you buy my clothing don't try to tell me what to wear or when to wear it. Also, If you can't take a joke get a freakin' life.

To the Scots: I love you guys, I really do...but you kicked us out of Scotland like your mangy, scurrilous, cur dog [and it seems some of you would like to continue treating us that way]... so be it! But...if I want to wear my kilt, I damn well will wear it, any way I want whenever and wherever I want... I don't need your permission, your blessing, or frankly your advice.

If I knew years ago how you felt about diaspora Scot descendents I would never have spent a damn dime [quid or whatever] on 3 visits to Scotland.

Rondo

[guardsman]

Scots willfight scots ovdr slightest thing , lets calm down and move on

[Germankilter]

Hey I take offense the reference to the word cur, I have a cur; a leapard cur to be precise. And he is lovable if not annoying with his ability to clear a six ft fence in a single bound.

Really? Everyone lighten up opions are like kilts, everyone here has one. Its weather your going ask about, and listen to the answer that's up to you.

[O'Searcaigh]

Just a few facts and figures:

Total Population of Scotland = ~ 5.3 Million
Total Population of Highlands, Inverness and Nairn = ~ 250K

There are over 250 Highland games held in the U.S. each year with an attendance of 1 - 2 thousand for “small” games, 5 - 7 thousand for “average” games and 20+ thousand for "large" games.

Georgia (home of Stone Mountain Games) has a population almost twice that of all of Scotland.

North Carolina (home of Grandfather Mountain Games) has a population almost twice that of all of Scotland.

Los Angeles Country, home to several highland games and gatherings, has a population more than twice that of all of Scotland.

California (home to more than a dozen highland games each year) has a population that is over seven times larger than the entire population of Scotland.

In other words, more people attend highland games is the U.S. alone (not counting Australia, Canada and others) than the entire population of the Scottish Highlands.

[cable scot]

I hear what rondo is saying and I do concur with the sentiment, but I would also like to think that we as a community could move along. A year or two ago this " Scots/non Scots topic was brought up,people got mad,people stood there ground and what it all amounted to was nothing. We are all here because we like to wear kilts,modern kilts,trad kilts,tartan kilts,rainbow kilts and we should leave it at that.

[moggi1964]

Just a few facts and figures:

Total Population of Scotland = ~ 5.3 Million
Total Population of Highlands, Inverness and Nairn = ~ 250K

There are over 250 Highland games held in the U.S. each year with an attendance of 1 - 2 thousand for “small” games, 5 - 7 thousand for “average” games and 20+ thousand for "large" games.

Georgia (home of Stone Mountain Games) has a population almost twice that of all of Scotland.

North Carolina (home of Grandfather Mountain Games) has a population almost twice that of all of Scotland.

Los Angeles Country, home to several highland games and gatherings, has a population more than twice that of all of Scotland.

California (home to more than a dozen highland games each year) has a population that is over seven times larger than the entire population of Scotland.

In other words, more people attend highland games is the U.S. alone (not counting Australia, Canada and others) than the entire population of the Scottish Highlands.

Aye but it's QUALITY not quantity that matters

I agree with the OP that people should try to be more calm and polite but we are a wide range of folks with different backgrounds and upbringing and 'stuff' going on in their lives. We aren't always at our best when we are on here and sometimes that shows through in the posts we make. I find the same on all the fora I am a member of and I have contributed to that unpleasantness myself at times (though not here.............yet!)

The point about the Highland Games and the numbers; as much as it is great that so much of the Scottish Heritage is commemorated in the large number of games and attendees across the US there is still nothing like attending an event in its true home.
An example:

I love Rugby Seven's and am planning a trip to see the International Sevens Tournament in Las Vegas in January 2014. I am sooooo excited. However, if I could go to the Melrose Sevens Tournament instead (a much less glamorous affair I can tell you) I would be there in a shot because Melrose is where it all began. There is something about being where it all began.

I miss my home and wearing the kilt connects me in a small way and the people here connect me in different ways. Of course, listening to a Billy Connolly album connects me like a piece of fibre optic cable

[A Lenape Scot]

I hope this my post will help everyone understand how they are effecting each other on both sides of the fence.


I have seen these kind of situations here in Oklahoma with the Native American world as well. The traditional tribal members are often angery about nontraditional types who are often in it for the benifits. In some cases an argument erupts about who is more Indian than another based on blood quantum. In my case I am in a job where I have to hear people tell me they have a Cherokee grandmother everyday or they are Indian because they have high cheekbones. Most of these people they have no proof that they are Native. This drives me nuts but this is my own personal problem. This is a personal flaw that I must learn to let go. Everyone has an identity they have created that they must protect.


It all comes down to what we value our identity and how we manifest it. Our identity is a cultural commodity that we use to create a sense of value in ourselves. When another person who values that same commodity (in this case Scottishness) and thinks that another person is watering that down they may be offended. Why? Because they feel that another is devaluing their idenity/commodity. On the other hand, a person who feels rebuked for not embracing another person's peramiters of a cultural commodity may feel their identity is under attack. In both cases individuals have a ligitament reason to feel defensive. It is time to realize that when we ask or answer a question that relates to identity (which tradition is an essential part) we are in a sensitive area and all sides must be respected. Many people have been angery at Jock lately when he is only giving his perspective of what supports his view of identity/tradition as a Scot. I posted a question on tartan ediquette that Jock answered quite well. Some were offended for me by the way they read into his comment. Please do not be. He is on the mark because he basically said to answer the question of identity for yourself and do not feel the need to explain it to anyone because most people will not ask you about it.


To wrap up, our identities are very important to each one of us. If we are going to ask a question about what is it traditional, how is it done in Scotland, should I wear a kilt, can I wear a certain tartan, how many kilts ect..., do not be offeded by the answers you get. If it helps you solidify your identy that is great. If not, move on without letting it shake what you value in yourself. When someone asks a question related to these topics do not get defensive and fear that your cultural commodity is being watered down. Just advise what you would do and leave it at that. You will still have your idenity no matter what someone else does. Most people are just trying to do the best that they can. Striking back another person for a comment or question based on a cultural commodity will always lead to a big dispute with everyone digging trenches to defend their boundaries of identity.
ith:

[Hawk]

A Lenape Scot wrote:

"I have seen these kind of situations here in Oklahoma with the Native American world as well. The traditional tribal members are often angery about nontraditional types who are often in it for the benifits. In some cases an argument erupts about who is more Indian than another based on blood quantum. In my case I am in a job where I have to hear people tell me they have a Cherokee grandmother everyday or they are Indian because they have high cheekbones. Most of these people they have no proof that they are Native. This drives me nuts but this is my own personal problem. This is a personal flaw that I must learn to let go. Everyone has an identity they have created that they must protect."

.....and let me add, as a "traditional" this is something we hear, we listen to, and we at many times just let pass by as we consider the source and/or essence behind the person speaking about it. And don't get me started on "blood quantum" as this is a foreign concept, imported and placed upon the indigenous People. Tribal People ( Communities, bands, groups and Nations, etc...) have their own ways of identifying those who they consider members of their own communities. This is completely different from what we are discussing here, as this has to do with identities in a general since, and how we as members here show respect and tolerance for the differences we all have.

But Lenape Scot has brought up some good points as how some people identify themselves and the emotions and sensitivity that sometimes comes into play.

Hawk

[Chas]

Over the past several days a number of posts in several threads have been rude, dismissive, and antagonistic. Comments made in jest have been taken literally, people have questioned other's right to wear a kilt to a particular function, or in a particular fashion, and some have implied the kilt only belongs to Scots, Highland Scots.

People...get over yourselves. Until you buy my clothing don't try to tell me what to wear or when to wear it. Also, If you can't take a joke get a freakin' life.

To the Scots: I love you guys, I really do...but you kicked us out of Scotland like your mangy, scurrilous, cur dog [and it seems some of you would like to continue treating us that way]... so be it! But...if I want to wear my kilt, I damn well will wear it, any way I want whenever and wherever I want... I don't need your permission, your blessing, or frankly your advice.

If I knew years ago how you felt about diaspora Scot descendents I would never have spent a damn dime [quid or whatever] on 3 visits to Scotland.

Rondo

Am I the only one who finds this post ironic. I think that the OP would be best advised take his own advice -

Thicken your skin...develop a sense of humor...and just chill out.

[Phil]

Identity is a very precious thing without which you cannot really define your place in the world. Totalitarian regimes recognise this and seek to control populations by bending their identities to suit their particular purpose. Less controlling regimes seek to do this also but in more subtle ways such as educating children in the new ways, imposing their own forms of religion, suppressing and actively discouraging the use of language and other such more long term methods. The aim is the same, however, and that is to bend the will of the minority to that of the controlling power.
Examples in Scotland, pre-devolution, might be the prohibition of tartan after 1745, the continuing discrimination against the native languages, Gaelic and Scots, in both education and society generally. Children were still being smacked in school in my younger days for using the language of their birth. Jock Scot recounts poignantly being ridiculed as a child for wearing a kilt, something I too have been aware of in the past.
This is not something peculiar to us here in Scotland. A civil war was fought in America over one part wanting to secede and preserve their own identity, whether for good or bad. Schools there to this day indoctrinate pupils daily in allegiance to the flag as a way of amalgamating diverse ethnic groups into one nation. I am not saying this is in any way bad, just to recognise the process.
Little wonder then that people would fight to retain what is left of their identity against such institutionalised attack and jealously guard it. Our Scots identity is not your identity and, while you may casually ignore it, we cannot. But please remember these lines:-
“First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.”
Just replace any of these with Scot, native American, Hispanic whatever before casually dismissing anyones aspirations to express and own their identity in the face of such organised and overwhelming opposition.
And finally, regardless of any disclaimer to the contrary by the perpetrator, I think no one here is in any doubt as to whom the recent attacks were directed. As he is probably much more profitably employed today, the "Glorious Twelfth" blasting every grouse in sight I can only wish him "Good shooting".