Black tie and white tie for kilts?

[Highwayman]

To start, I'm a few weeks away from owning a USA Kilts Casual kilt in a family tartan, it'll be my first real tartan kilt. Coincidentally, last night I was being installed at a Masonic function and was able to wear white tie for the first time, having usually only worn black tie. Now that I'm able to wear white tie on a monthly basis and black tie is now more for social events, I'm wondering about possibly putting together kilt-based outfits for more open-minded events without the stricter dress codes. Googling it, I've had mixed accounts of what can be worn for black tie and white tie, including some statements that white tie for a kilt truly does not exist. Some even say the Prince Charlie, which to me looks to be a tuxedo if there ever was one, is actually casual and to look for a doublet.

Are there any official sources on where I can look into what I'd need to assemble these outfits?

[Jim Simmons]

I am certainly not a source for the correct wearing of the kilt but, the Black Tie Guide has a page that speaks some on both Black Tie and White Tie with the kilt. Might be a start until more knowledgeable Members speak.

Also, there is a thread here that shows examples of Black and White Tie wear.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/Supplemental/Scottish.htm

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-attire-48691/

[The Wizard of BC]

I am one of those who believes that there is no kilt equivalent to White Tie.

White Tie events are very rare these days. State functions at the White House, Opening night of the Opera in Vienna and the Nobel Prize awards are some of the few true White Tie events.

If you ever receive an invitation to one of these events the way the invitation is worded will usually say "White Tie and Tails". This style of dress is almost as proscribed as a uniform.

Just because you wear a White Bow Tie does not fit the requirements of this form of dress.

Here is a photo of the way you are expected to dress for this level of event.


Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh in White Tie and Tails.


The portion that says "And Tails" refers to the Tail Coat. Neither a Doublet nor a Prince Charlie are a suitable substitute for a tail coat. The tails of the Tail Coat reach down in back to the back of the knees.
This outfit also includes a White Silk Bow Tie, starched bib front Wing Color Shirt fastened with studs and a White Silk Waistcoat without Lapels.

The only time I can think that a kilt would be acceptable to one of these events is if the invitation specifies "Or National Dress". And then only if you are officially representing Scotland on state business.

The other way this is sometimes worded is "Top Hat and Tails". Think Fred Astaire.





WWII pretty well killed off the days of "Dressing for Dinner". In the days when gentlemen dressed in Black and White Tie, Black Tie was considered casual evening wear.
Most of the old photos some of our member like to show of Evening Highland Wear are for those events where the level of formality is actually Black Tie.
Today the tuxedo is the Black tie equivalent. When and where the Tuxedo was invented it was considered 'country casual evening wear'.

The Prince Charlie Coatee with its satin lapels is the kilt equivalent of the tuxedo. My advice to customers is to use the Prince Charlie ONLY when a tuxedo would be appropriate.

And just as with White Tie just because you put on a Black Bow Tie does not mean that you are dressed in "Black Tie".

There are still some who consider Black Tie to be suitable only for events after 6:00pm. Today the invitation would sometimes state the level of formality of the event.
There are some weddings held in the afternoon where the Tuxedo is specified but usually because they have not heard of a morning coat.

This is all my personal opinion of course. But I learned this back in the days when men still dressed this way so still consider it the way I would dress today.

And I'm very sorry, and mean no disrespect of Rocky, but I would not consider a USA Kilts Casual Model kilt as acceptable for either Black or White tie events.

[tpa]

Extract from Kinloch Anderson website:

White Tie Dinner
Coatee and Vest with black bow tie! Also the Regulation Doublet, Montrose Doublet, Sheriffmuir Jacket or Kenmore Jacket.

[kiltedtom]

Guess I am a real uneducated individual. I see no differences between white tie and black tie (other than the obvious colors). They both look equally dressed up and uncomfortable to me. They seem to harken back to days when individuals were only allowed to dress according to their status in society. And people were judged by the clothes instead of the person inside. I have seen some very spiffy looking men in kilts and formal regalia. If someone else does not like it, that is his or her issue.

I do not intend to insult anyone with my opinion here. I just think the world should be beyond such class distinctions. But, more likely, it never really will be.

Have a good time however you decide to dress.

Tom

[Highwayman]

My personal explanation of black tie versus white tie.

Black tie: You get to dress like James Bond.
White tie: You get to dress like the Monopoly Guy.

Coincidentally, I just summed up my personal motives for buying and wearing both outfits.

[CMcG]

...Googling it, I've had mixed accounts of what can be worn for black tie and white tie, including some statements that white tie for a kilt truly does not exist. Some even say the Prince Charlie, which to me looks to be a tuxedo if there ever was one, is actually casual and to look for a doublet.
...

White tie for kilts isn't as codified as it is for trousers, but it certainly exists. This is complicated by the fact that some white tie Highland balls allow people to wear black tie. When in doubt, consult the invitation, photos of previous events, and/or your host for clarification.

Neither a Prince Charlie nor a tuxedo have ever been casual attire. Some might say, black tie (i.e., dinner jacket, PC) is semi-formal, while white tie is full formal and a suit is informal... casual would be sort of a non-code because of the wide variation. Dress codes have evolved and vary by location, culture, and society, but both the PC and tux are still formal jackets.

...Are there any official sources on where I can look into what I'd need to assemble these outfits?

While not official, you may find the guide that @Nathan and I produced helpful:
Traditional Highland Civilian Dress: A Definition and Guide with Visual Examples

[Dileasgubas]

day wear.jpgphoto.jpg

Since I belong to a kilted masonic lodge, perhaps these photos may help. These were taken prior to attending emergent (less formal) lodge meetings.

The first photo is for an emergent meeting that called for "business suit". I am wearing a tweed jacket acquired from a fellow XMarker, brown brogues and leather purse, striped shirt and tie. Looking back, I didn't particularly like the look of the striped shirt but it was what came to hand that day. Of all the above "outfits", I tend to wear the tweed jacket the most. The kilt is a Macdonnell of Glengarry large sett 8 yd from Strathmore Woollens.

In the second photo I wore an Argyll without vest, leather purse, white shirt and highland brigade tie, plain hose and a brass buckled belt. The kilt is a five-yd casual wool kilt from Burnett's and Struth acquired from a fellow XMarker. I am not sure if that is the proper use of an Argyll but it works well in lodge where they tend to dress conservatively. The leather purse is from Freedom Kilts - I tend to wear it a lot since it looks nice dressed up.

For many lodge functions, however, the PC with formal shirt and black tie is de rigueur. Grand Lodge officers in our jurisdiction tend to wear white tie for formal functions but I have yet to see anyone in jabot and cuffs. I am hoping that someone will eventually change that.

Hope this helps.

[sailortats]

Sorry but I cannot see the pictures

[Highwayman]

To confirm, are some of you saying that a 'Saxon jacket', as in just an off-the-rack jacket from my closet, can be worn with a kilt? I own two tweed coats, a dozen or so sport jackets, both dinner jacket and my new tail coat, etc. Which of these would be usable with a tartan kilt?