when to wear a belt and when not to

[saditch]

As a week old newbie i am only getting to grips with the forum so in advance please forgive me if this is a recurring thread and i just haven't found the others. I have just finished watching the USkilts video on how to wear the outfit. I note during the demo he ended up wearing the kilt belt as well as the Argyle waistcoat. I was under the impression that "normally" it was either or? if your wore the belt with buckle then a waistcoat was not worn mainly because the bottom of the waistcoat hides the buckle that your trying to show. I fully understand one persons "normal" may not be everyones "normal" taking that on board my question then would be - what does traditional etiquette say on the subject?

S

[Jock Scot]

You are quite correct that "normally" if one wears a waistcoat then one does not wear a kilt belt. However I can think of one very traditional Laird who commonly wears a kilt belt over his waistcoat with day wear. One also needs to remember that with some forms of evening(dress) jackets the belt is worn either over the waistcoat, or jacket itself depending on cut and style. In this mode I think that the belt is really considered as a dirk belt. As dirks are rarely carried these days one could argue that the belt could be dispensed with. Nevertheless, there are certain dress jackets where the belt is an effective addition.

In passing, it is traditional to wear a "prong" style belt buckle on the kilt belt for daywear and a "plate" style buckle for evening wear. I know some of our trans-Atlantic friends may cough a bit at that, but traditionaly that is how it is done.

[The Wizard of BC]

When I was growing up I was taught that if you are wearing a vest you do not wear a belt. Even if you happen to be wearing trousers. That is what braces are for.

As the belt worn with a kilt is decorative and not used to hold the kilt up, it serves only to give a visual break between kilt and shirt.

But all over the web you will see pictures of guys with both belt and vest. Personally I don't like the look of a buckle peeking out underneath my vest so do not wear a belt if I am wearing a jacket and vest.

[Bruce Scott]

In passing, it is traditional to wear a "prong" style belt buckle on the kilt belt for daywear and a "plate" style buckle for evening wear. I know some of our trans-Atlantic friends may cough a bit at that, but traditionaly that is how it is done.

While I'm sure that you are correct, these gentlemen are all wearing plate buckles with day wear. Many would probably look to their clan chiefs for guidance on dress.
002606_001.jpg
997f8772e5897c912effdf8ed6579926.jpg
2009Gathering_0050.jpg
2009Gathering_0052.jpg
2009Gathering_0028.jpg

[Jock Scot]

While I'm sure that you are correct, these gentlemen are all wearing plate buckles with day wear. Many would probably look to their clan chiefs for guidance on dress.

I doubt that many would look at their Clan Chiefs attire for guidance , other than a passing interest and that would go for most kilted gentlemen who take a "20 yard blink of the eye" glance at any kilted soul that passes by. Plate buckles are indeed worn by some, not just a Laird, but that is regarded as one of those personal flair things, rather like the chap who wears his belt over his waistcoat, he likes it so who are we to criticise? Well, of course we are not, we are making observations, but the trouble is with observations , we are unlikely to know the reasoning behind the end result in the picture.

In passing, I note that most kilt hire companies seem to equip their customers with plate style buckles and show the models wearing the belt under the waistcoat. Neither is a hanging offence, but hardly traditional etiquette as per the OP's question.

[tpa]

In passing, I note that most kilt hire companies seem to equip their customers with plate style buckles and show the models wearing the belt under the waistcoat. Neither is a hanging offence, but hardly traditional etiquette as per the OP's question.

I have seen that down here on shop dummies in wedding hire shops too Jock; on questioning the response is that the the outfits are sourced from Scotland and that is how they come! Their saving grace is that at least they have dressed the dummies with the pleats at the back. Presumably the outfits come with instructions.

[saditch]

While I'm sure that you are correct, these gentlemen are all wearing plate buckles with day wear. Many would probably look to their clan chiefs for guidance on dress.
002606_001.jpg
997f8772e5897c912effdf8ed6579926.jpg
2009Gathering_0050.jpg
2009Gathering_0052.jpg
2009Gathering_0028.jpg

Hi Bruce, love the pics, I note in photo 3 we have three gentlemen, one of whom is wearing both waistcoat AND belt & buckle. i guess the premise appears to be that "tradition" says they don't go together and dare i say aesthetically it doesn't work, I personally don't think it works simply because the plate buckle gets hidden by the waistcoat. but hey, thankfully we are all different, with different views & opinions ( if we didn't we wouldn't have a forum !! btw forgive my ignorance what is a "prong" sorry for being thick :-(

[WillowEstate]

Hi Bruce, love the pics, I note in photo 3 we have three gentlemen, one of whom is wearing both waistcoat AND belt & buckle. i guess the premise appears to be that "tradition" says they don't go together and dare i say aesthetically it doesn't work, I personally don't think it works simply because the plate buckle gets hidden by the waistcoat. but hey, thankfully we are all different, with different views & opinions ( if we didn't we wouldn't have a forum !! btw forgive my ignorance what is a "prong" sorry for being thick :-(

The guy in the middle in picture three is wearing what I understand a prong belt to be, not sure what others might call it, "hasp" maybe? It's the pin-like thing that comes forward through the belt and rests on the leading edge of the buckle to hold it.

P.S. there are no "thick" questions here, if you need to know, just ask, someone will respond.

[carlisle401]

I think you will find that a lot of people do wear belts with kilts. The Scottish regiments did not not wear belts with waistcoats (vests). I believe this is where it started. The officer here must be Duty Officer hence, the Glengarry.

page_29_thumb_large-2.jpggordonmessdress.jpg

[OC Richard]

...one very traditional Laird who commonly wears a kilt belt over his waistcoat with day wear. One also needs to remember that with some forms of evening(dress) jackets the belt is worn either over the waistcoat, or jacket itself depending on cut and style. In this mode I think that the belt is really considered as a dirk belt. As dirks are rarely carried these days one could argue that the belt could be dispensed with. Nevertheless, there are certain dress jackets where the belt is an effective addition.

Hear, hear!

In "the old days" the belt was called a "dirk belt" and was worn to support a dirk, but not otherwise. Likewise the cross-belt was worn to support a sword. "Form follows function" as the saying goes.

The dirk belt would be worn either over the jacket, or more rarely over the waistcoat. Nearly always, in the old days, men were to be seen wearing both jacket and waistcoat, so the modern situation of wearing a dirk belt directly on the kilt, due to no waistcoat being worn, didn't arise.

The idea of the belt having the sole function of supporting the dirk started changing, as best I can tell, in the 1920s when new styles of Evening doublets, the Montrose and Kenmore, were introduced, which were intended to be worn with a belt. The introduction of the Montrose and Kenmore happened to coincide with a trend of greater simplicity in Highland Dress, and the shearing off of weaponry save for the sgian. A host of new Evening jackets were appearing, such as the Prince Charlie, which were worn as part of a sleek understated simplified costume. So we had the ironic situation of a functionless belt being adopted at the very time when most of the traditional do-dads were being abandoned. (These being the dirk belt, cross-belt, dirk, sword, pair of pistols, powder-horn, plaid, and brooch, which were commonly worn with full Highland Dress throughout the 19th century.)

Anyhow the old dirk belt is now, for some reason, being regarded as essential to kiltwearing, and being thought of as having the purpose of supporting the kilt itself. My theory is that this is being driven by Americans who view dirk belt as being the equivalent of the belt worn with trousers. Of course this is a case of false analogy, kilts never before being deemed to require any support.

It's a hideous modern trend to wear the old dirk belt under a waistcoat, the belt being visible, poking out in an ungainly way. The modern Scottish kilt hire and Highland Dress shops are doing their best to promote this, the only motive I can imagine being to hire and sell more stuff and make a bit more money.

The high Victorian full Highland dress



The new 20th century Evening Dress of the post-WWI era, sleek and elegant, with a new jacket style, the "coatee"



One of the new jacket styles, the Kenmore, intended to be worn with a dirk belt (which is so-named in the catalogue)



The current wearing of the belt under the waistcoat, directly on the kilt... what Highland Dress has come to.