Irish families as septs of Highland Clans

[TheMcManus]

I am puzzled by the number fiz-,kirk-, o' and the other common Irish names being listed as septs of Scottish Clans.
I know the obvious , the migration from Ireland brought many of those families over and the clan system integrated them at some point. Also I know that some clans are of Irish origin and that some families and clans share a common name but have different origins -like Kenedy.
Personally , I would like to understand the connection and relationship between the Catholic MacManus-MacMains and the Colquhon clan, other than the fact that the MacMains served the clan there isn't much info.
Gunn and MacManus-MacMains makes more sense because of the Norse-Gael lineage. But that those are questions that relate specifically to me , in general ..I cant find anything but general generic info on the relationship between the clans and the septs that have obvious Irish names.
Does any one have any insight ?

[NPG]

There is a lot here that as a historian I can try to untangle some of for you, but also keep in mind that the term sept can be tricky and some of the supposed lists of septs and clans they are attached to should not be trusted. For instance in the case of occupational names (Gowan being roughly the Gaelic equivalent of Smith) one can have a really hard time tracking down what clan affiliations if any might have existed without knowing where in Scotland the family originated.

Sept is an English word that designates a branch of a family. My understanding is that it is similar to the Gaelic term Siol - seed or progeny. As I understand it the sept lists that we find today were mostly created in the 19th century linking surnames to clans so that people without a clan could claim a tartan. Some lists as far as I can tell are better than others, but I am not expert on that.

Fitz (or Fiz) is of Anglo-Norman origin and means "son of", so it can be found independently throughout the British Isles. Without going into to too much detail on the Norman attempts at conquest in Ireland or the Scottish invitation of Normans into the realm, I will say that after 1066 Normans spread far and wide across the Isles.

Kirk - Is a Scots word for church. It's origins are a bit murky with some saying it derives from Greek while others saying it comes from Old Norse. In any case its use in naming conventions usually comes from place names. For instance Kirkpatrick might take it's name from the Church of St. Patrick. You might also see the name as Gilpatrick or Kilpatrick "servant" of Patrick. Because these are names derived from places or the like, they are often found in different locations and can be independent in origin, like occupational names.

Mac - Mac is Gaelic and means "son of". Now this gets complicated for two reasons. Both the Irish and the Scots use Mac, so here I'll return to Gowan one might see a MacGowan and it could be either Scots or Irish. To make matters worse the Plantations of Ireland in the 16th-17th centuries brought many a Scottish family over to Ireland.

O' - O' is Gaelic means "descendant of". In my limited research have rarely seen O'XXXX listed as a sept, save in the case of Clan MacDonald. Given the history of Clan Donald this is not surprising as they traditionally have longer ties to Ireland and in fact some of Somerled's descendants are recorded as some of the first Gallowglass in Ireland.

One has to also keep in mind that Scotland and Ireland had a long connection. The Scoti people are said to have been Irish Gaels who settled in the west of Scotland and who culturally supplanted the native Pics. Robert Bruce's brother Edward claimed himself King of Ireland with support from the O'Neill family in 1317. And of course the Plantations cannot be ignored.

As for MacManus' relationship to Colquhoun. I cannot say for sure, but the historic lands of the Colquhouns are said to be Dunbartonshire which is on the west cost. If I had to hazard a guess this is why a family with the name meaning "Son of Mangus" fell under their banner. My understanding of Colquhouns is that they were Kilpatricks who took the name Colquhoun from the barony they were granted.

Take what I say with a grain of salt. I am by no means an expert in genealogy, I'm a historian who dabbles in knowing the families of Scotland and Ireland.

[neloon]

Just for interest.
"O'"is a contraction of "ob" with the Welsh equivalent "ap" giving rise to surnames such as Pritchard, Powell, Pugh, Bowen, Bevan, Preece, Probert, Prodger, Upjohn, Parry, Prothero for sons of Richard, Howell, Hugh, Owen, Evan, Rhys, Robert, Rodger, John, Harry, Rhoderick and so on.
Alan

[Roadkill]

this brings up a question that I have had for a while. My last name is Hughes. I was told by some it is Irish and by others Scot, but while looking at tartans I found the name in Wales. But I also recently found it on Scotweb as Irish. Could it be considered both? Please excuse me if it's a dumb question. I am new to this.

[NPG]

this brings up a question that I have had for a while. My last name is Hughes. I was told by some it is Irish and by others Scot, but while looking at tartans I found the name in Wales. But I also recently found it on Scotweb as Irish. Could it be considered both? Please excuse me if it's a dumb question. I am new to this.

This is not a dumb question at all. To the best of my knowledge the answer is both. I have Hughes in my family tree, they are Welsh, but I only know this because I can trace from where they originated. That being said it is also an Irish surname. Both I believe are derived from the Gaelic and Welsh respectively for fire. I'm not aware of a Scottish Hughes, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The best thing I can recommend is to trace the line as best you can back to the old country. There are some good sites out there for this, though I prefer relying on family for more of an oral tradition to back up what the documents might tell you.

[neloon]

The Gaelic first name "Uisdean" (from which come surnames such as Hutcheon, Hutchison, Houston, McCutcheon etc.) was a Gaelicisation of a Norse name which roughly meant "always a rock". However, this was, in turn, Anglicised as Hugh so you will certainly find Hughes, Hughson etc. as Scottish surnames today with no clear clan connection though you might like to look at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_of_Sleat

Alan

[tripleblessed]

I'm not aware of a Scottish Hughes, but that doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

I have a Duncan Hughes, christened at Kirkton of Kingoldrum in 1750. Family was apparently well established there,
though hard to find a lot before then. I've been told repeatedly that at that time and location, he would have been clan Ogilvie. Clan Ogilvie folk seem to concur unanimously.

I have a line of MacCabes that arrived in Ireland as galloglaich for the O'Reilly and O'Rourke kings, provided by the their
chief, a MacLeod. They stayed so long their clan seat was in County Cavan, and they came to be regarded as native Irish.

There is a section of Galway and Mayo called Joyce Country because the younger son of a Norman knight who held a
castle in Wales was by Norman custom not inheriting anything, it being destined for the oldest son. His father made a match for him with a daughter of the Prince of Thomond, and his arrival in Limerick was noteworthy due to the size of his fleet. Upon realizing his bride would not be inheriting much either, he proceeded to establish himself as lord of much of Galway and Mayo. 700 years later, Joyces are regarded as native Irish.

The Fitz patronymic arrived in Ireland with the attempt by Henry II to pacify the Irish for the Pope, to gain a grant of
favor from said notary. Upset by the education of European Catholics by well-read Irish priests newly reaching out and establishing abbeys on the continent, the Pope was worried that education would erode the power of the Church. He asked Henry to go over and make the Irish behave, as they weren't obeying his cease and desist orders. Henry found it
convenient, as his youngest son (Evil Prince John of Robin Hood and the Magna Carta) had no holdings, leading to his being known as John Lackland. His (Henry's) efforts were not overly successful, gaining only a toehold which was walled with a palisade to prevent predation by those savage Irish. Those wild men were described as living "beyond the pale". Thereby the idiom. And the locals hated John so much he left in fear of his life. Later attempts by English kings to complete the conquest were met by the Normans as well as the Irish with the complaint that "you have no right to OUR country". FitzGeralds, FitzPatricks, FitzHughs, etc., are now 800 years later native Irish.

[O'Callaghan]

I am puzzled by the number fiz-,kirk-, o' and the other common Irish names being listed as septs of Scottish Clans.
I know the obvious , the migration from Ireland brought many of those families over and the clan system integrated them at some point. Also I know that some clans are of Irish origin and that some families and clans share a common name but have different origins -like Kenedy.
Personally , I would like to understand the connection and relationship between the Catholic MacManus-MacMains and the Colquhon clan, other than the fact that the MacMains served the clan there isn't much info.
Gunn and MacManus-MacMains makes more sense because of the Norse-Gael lineage. But that those are questions that relate specifically to me , in general ..I cant find anything but general generic info on the relationship between the clans and the septs that have obvious Irish names.
Does any one have any insight ?

The main migration of Gaels to Scotland from Ireland pre-dates surnames, so even where the name is similar or related there is often no link atall, but of course there were movements in both directions.

Kennedy is a particularly interesting one, as there are not merely two Kennedy clans, but three. As well as the Scots clan, and I suppose all Scottish Gaels were of the Dalriada, there were Irish Kennedys of the Dalcassians and of the Eugenians, these all being tribes of Gaels, for which I have given the anglicised versions of their names. Callahan is a Eugenian name, but the really famous Kennedy clan (think US politics) is Dalcassian, not Eugenian, so not of my tribe. The name Kennedy is simply the anglicised form of the first name Cenneidhe, of course, which I suppose must have been a popular name. Most Gaelic surnames were formed that way. Of course, not all the Scottish clans were Gaelic, whereas I think generally the Irish ones were, but that's another matter.

Not a historian or in any way qualified in what I am talking about, LOL!

[TheMcManus]

The main migration of Gaels to Scotland from Ireland pre-dates surnames, so even where the name is similar or related there is often no link atall, but of course there were movements in both directions.

Kennedy is a particularly interesting one, as there are not merely two Kennedy clans, but three. As well as the Scots clan, and I suppose all Scottish Gaels were of the Dalriada, there were Irish Kennedys of the Dalcassians and of the Eugenians, these all being tribes of Gaels, for which I have given the anglicised versions of their names. Callahan is a Eugenian name, but the really famous Kennedy clan (think US politics) is Dalcassian, not Eugenian, so not of my tribe. The name Kennedy is simply the anglicised form of the first name Cenneidhe, of course, which I suppose must have been a popular name. Most Gaelic surnames were formed that way. Of course, not all the Scottish clans were Gaelic, whereas I think generally the Irish ones were, but that's another matter.

Not a historian or in any way qualified in what I am talking about, LOL!

There were also Scot Kennedys who moved over to Ulster in fiarly sizeable numbers and I am sure Irish Kennedys who moved to Scotland as there large Irish colonies in some areas. I think the Chief of the Kennedy clan , the Highland iteration, had declared that all kennedys from all families have a home in the clan, so that's cool.

[EagleJCS]

I can't give any insight to the OP's question, though I do have a comment.

Scott is also a family name that is of fairly ambiguous origin. I have been told there are at least three different origins (English, Irish, and of course, Scottish), none of which are related to one another. By some published accounts, the Scottish line traces back to one Uchtred filius scoti - Uchtred, son of (the?/a?) Scot - in the early 1100's, witness to the foundation charter of the abbey of Holyrood , among other things.

The Irish and English Scotts presumably derived their family names from ancestors who migrated from Scotland and either referred to themselves as 'Scots' or were referred to by their neighbors as 'the Scot'. (e.g. 'Alex, the Scot' turning into 'Alex Scott' over time). The second 't' was added later as spelling standardization took place, to differentiate the family from the nationality/ethnicity.

Regrettably, my family doesn't know for certain which of the three groups we descend from. A cousin has traced back to pre-Revolutionary western Virginia, but the trail gets a bit confused trying to go back from there. From what I recall, when asked my grandfather always said we were Irish Scotts, then laughed. I think he was making a joke based on the fact that his mother was Irish (from Country Antrim) and the family name is Scott, though there is a distinct possibility that we are, in fact, of Ulster Scots descent. As to where those Scotts may have came from, who knows?