Would my great grandfather have worn a kilt in WW1???

[TenorClef]

Hiya, so yesterday I discovered this Scot was the same chap on my family tree. Hugh Frizzell my great grandfather. His MIC reveal the following-
Acting Corporal 2975 Hugh Frizzell, 1/5th (Renfrewshire) Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Later A/Cpl 201101.
Then according to his MIC he went on to serve in these too:
A/Cpl 202781, 1/4th (Queen’s Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots.
A/Cpl 421864, Renfrew (Fortress) Company, Royal Engineers.
A/Cpl WR/193564, Royal Engineers.

Question would he have worn a kilt?

Any ideas which one and any photos appreciated :-)

[neloon]

Yes.
An officer and 5 senior NCOs in the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, WW1
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6e311c8a43.jpg
You can easily find many other such photographs.
Alan

[OC Richard]

First, I would think that this thread might well be moved to the new Military forum.

Googling found this and much more information

http://www.wartimememoriesproject.co...on.php?pid=329

Here you can see a photo of the 5th Battalion and they seem to be kilted

https://www.argylls.co.uk/museum/arg...landers-ww1-2/

Here's the photo from the above site showing the 5th Argylls. You can see that they appear to be wearing the normal uniform of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. Oftentimes Territorial battalions have unique uniforms, different from those of the parent regiments.



Here are the 4th Royal Scots. Only the pipers and drummers appear to be kilted, but I would take this photo with a big grain of salt because it's been heavily modified, painted over actually. From what I see with quick Googling the 9th Royal Scots were kilted but the other battalions not.

[TenorClef]

Fascinating.......would i be correct in assuming the kilt great grandad Hugh wore would be the standard regulation Black Watch?

[OC Richard]

would i be correct in assuming the kilt great granddad Hugh wore would be the standard regulation Black Watch?

Well, it wouldn't do for an Argyll to call his kilt "Black Watch"

The Argylls call their tartan Sutherland, though yes it's the same as Black Watch.

In the 18th century a large number of Highland regiments wore that tartan, which was simply called the Government Tartan.

In modern times anyhow the same fabric was issued to the Other Ranks of both the Argylls and the Black Watch, but the two kilts were pleated differently, the Argylls being boxpleated and the Black Watch being knifepleated.

Officers and certain senior Sergeants of the Argylls wore a tartan with the green made considerably lighter. These Officer/Sergeant Argyll & Sutherland Highlander kilts, with the lighter green and boxpleated, are now worn by the entire Infantry of the nation of Scotland, and all ranks. You can pick up these Royal Regiment Of Scotland kilts cheaply on Ebay.

Assuming for now that the 5th Argylls wore the same uniform as the 1st, here's the rear of an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders kilt, showing the pleating. This is an Other Ranks kilt (Privates and Corporals) made of the same fabric as Other Ranks kilts in the Black Watch, but being pleated differently. Note the old-style military straps and buckles.



Here you can see the pleating, panel, and ribbons of an A&SH Sergeants/Officers kilt



Here's the rear of a modern Royal Regiment Of Scotland kilt. The fabric is the Sergeants/Officers fabric of the Argylls, having the lighter green. This kilt is boxpleated just like the Argylls kilts were. Note the switch to civilian-style buckles.



Once again under the assumption that the 5th Argylls wore a uniform similar to the 1st, here's what your Great-Grandfather would have looked like (while a Corporal). Note the precision of this well turned-out man, and the flawless fit of the tunic. The regimental tailor would have seen to that, I assume.

[slothead]

Hiya, so yesterday I discovered this Scot was the same chap on my family tree. Hugh Frizzell my great grandfather. His MIC reveal the following-
Acting Corporal 2975 Hugh Frizzell, 1/5th (Renfrewshire) Battalion, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Later A/Cpl 201101.
Then according to his MIC he went on to serve in these too:
A/Cpl 202781, 1/4th (Queen’s Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots.
A/Cpl 421864, Renfrew (Fortress) Company, Royal Engineers.
A/Cpl WR/193564, Royal Engineers.

Question would he have worn a kilt?

Any ideas which one and any photos appreciated :-)

That is way too cool TenorClef! Congratulations on your pride for your heritage! I hope some day I can nail down my highlander heritage and it shows some military history (mine will be a lot earlier than WWI though - more likely something akin to Culloden)

[TenorClef]

It's funny you should say this Tom.....I too thought it pretty cool but when i told my wife and two daughters they were like totally nonplussed by my interest......I guess not everyone get's the Scottish thing :-)

From what I could tell from the documents Hugh Frizzell married in 1904 then had my grandfather George Alexander Lever Frizzell in 1920 who saw service as a Sapper in the Royal Engineers in WW2. Grandad George went on to have two daughters Sandra Frizzell (1949) and Christine Frizzell in 1953. Christine was my mother.

Thankfully Hugh's MIC prove he was the same Hugh Frizzell on my family tree, dates, age, employment, home address all tally up. Nice to be able to establish a genuine Scottish connection......at least I thought so lol!

[davidlpope]

Richard,

I know you know this, but it might be helpful for others to explicitly note that the two kilts pictured, though both military box-pleated, look quite different from the back because they are pleated to a different line in the sett. This, also, is a defining difference between the old regimental uniforms.

[blackwatch70]

IMHO, only A&SH officers wore Government tartan with light coloured green. The A&SH Sergeants wore OR's dark tartan fabric kilts at least in the second half of 20 c.

[OC Richard]

Yes I should have said "senior Sergeants". I'll change it in my post above.

For example here are the Pipe Major and Drum Major, both clearly wearing the tartan with the much lighter green.

Interestingly it was these very men who didn't wear the badger sporran, but wore the white sporran with long tassels seen here, an odd quirk of the Argylls.



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