WTB: Argyll/Braemar etc - Not a PC - 42 L to 44

[bodhran4me]

Got It !!!

I am looking for something less formal than a Prince Charlie, preferably in a brown tweed but open to other materials and colours. Generally I wear a 42 L or 42 with let down sleeves. I have tried a 44 Argyll from HoE and was pleased with the fit. My current saxon styled jackets measure about 20 " between armpits and sleeves are from 25 3/4 to 26 1/2" crown to cuff.

Please PM with any offerings you have. I have a US address in Ogdensburg , NY as well as Canadian if that helps.

Cheers !

Found One !!!

[The Wizard of BC]

The topic of kilt jacket can be confusing at times. Perhaps because of the names that the different makers use.
These names are just what each manufacturer has chosen for their model or style. They may be different for each maker.

But - here are a few hints and tips when looking for a jacket.

There are basically three styles in use today. These are pretty common and what you will find in almost every kilt shop all over the world.

Yes, there are a couple other, more than these three, but we will come to those later.

The most formal style of jacket you will find on the racks of most kilt shops is almost universally called the Prince Charlie. Not Bonny Prince Charlie.
This is a coatee style of jacket that takes its inspiration from the military mess dress coatee.



The Prince Charlie has "tails" in the back.



This is the most formal style of jacket. It has satin lapels. This kicks this jacket up into the range of formality with the tuxedo.
The Prince Charlie coatee is worn with a tuxedo shirt and black bow tie.



The next style of jacket is called by many different names.
The basic design features of this style of jacket is that it is longer than the Prince Charlie. More like a suit coat.
(However, the bottom of a suit coat will end at about the bottom of the buttocks to hide the pucker from the trouser legs.
A jacket cut for a kilt will end at the crest of the buttocks or just about where the pleats are sewn down and tapered.)
This style will normally have a single button front.
It will also usually have epaulettes.
And the pocket flaps will usually be scalloped and have decorative buttons.
And there will be a cut-away to go around the sporran.



Where some of the confusion comes from is the cuff treatment.



If the cuff has a single button you see above on the left, without the small fold over, (Called a 'Closed cuff') the name of the style is not "Argyle" but now "Crail".
If the cuff is the gauntlet style you see in the middle, it is called "Argyle" as this is the Argyle cuff.
If the cuff has the same placket seen on the Prince Charle it will usually be called a "Braemer".

All of these different cuff treatments can be on jackets which are otherwise identical in everything else.

The Argyle/Braemer/Crail style is much more versatile than the Prince Charlie which is only worn for those events where the others, not in kilts, would be in Tuxedo.

If you have an invitation to a formal or Black Tie event, the Argyle may be worn with a tux shirt and black bow tie.



And it can also be worn like a suit coat for less formal events.

With or without the vest.



And if you are brave enough to pull it off, you can wear it with a vest in a contrasting color.



Both the Prince Charlie and the Argyle, are most commonly found, made from a type of fabric called Barathea. This refers to the weave of the fabric.

If you make the exact same Argyle/Braemer/Crail jacket from a Tweed fabric you have what is most commonly called a "Tweed Argyle"



The jacket above is made exactly the same as the Argyle. The only difference is the fabric it is made from.

But again, the jacket cut and style are less formal than the Prince Charlie.

I personally do not own a Prince Charlie. There are too few "Black Tie" events left in the world today. You will still see the Prince Charlie offered in almost every kilt shop. But if you want versatility I would suggest that you investigate either the Argyle/Braemer/Crail made from Black Barathea or the same jacket made from a Tweed fabric.

For a smart, professional, business look this is how you will see me dressed almost every time.

[The Wizard of BC]

Now, How do you find or measure the size for your kilt jacket.

Almost all of the jackets you will find in Kilt Shops will be made in just a very few shops. So they will almost always be made using a very similar style or pattern.
Most kilt jackets will be made in a European style of cut. This means that the jacket will fit closer to your body than the average jacket in N.America.

At the side there will be a cut to taper the jacket into the waist. Not as much as a jacket cut in the "Italian" style but it is there.

This means that the waist of both the jacket and the vest will be smaller than the average N. American jacket.
For example a stock size 44 regular Argyle from one of the UK makers will have a chest of 44 inches. But the waist will be only 39 inches.

The back will have a more form fitting shape and may feel tighter under the arms that a N. American jacket. The same 44 Regular length kilt jacket will have only 9.75 inches from the back center seam to the arm hole.
This may mean that you cannot bring your arms forward and have the elbows touch as is normal in a N. American jacket.

So, if you have a waist near or larger than 39 inches you may have to go up a size in the chest. That is if your budget means you will be buying "Off-The-Rack". It is a fact that we here on X Marks sometimes forget when talking about jackets. Not everyone can afford a Made-To-Measure (MTM) or Custom/Bespoke jacket.

The secret really is to take a good set of measurements. You always do this with a flexible, tailors tape measure and forget the size you would normally buy in N. America.

Measure the circumference just under the arms with the arms at the side and your body relaxed. Don't suck in your stomach or expand your chest.



Then you will measure your waist. This is taken at the anatomical waist and not where you wear your trousers.
Put the tape measure just under the ribs at the side. Stand relaxed and don't suck in your stomach.



These first two circumference measurements you can easily do yourself. But for all the rest you will need an assistant.

Determine where you want the cuff of your sleeve to hit your wrist. When I was young and learning about how to dress well, we were told that when your arms are down at you side there should be no shirt cuff showing. This is still how I wear my jackets today.

In the '60's this changed. Now it is common for a jacket cuff to be cut shorter so that about 1/2 inch of shirt cuff shows beyond the jacket cuff.

You are going to start at at the top of of your shoulder. You want to put the tape about 1 inch above the point where the shoulder joint is.



The go down to where ever you want your sleeve cuff to end.



You can actually use your shirt cuff to guide where the sleeve length (Called Crown-to- Cuff) measurement will be.

You will now need to find the length of the jacket.
This is taken with zero just below the collar.



And extends down the spine ending right at the crest of the buttocks.



A short length jacket will be 1 inch shorter in the jacket length and 1 1/2 inch shorter in the sleeve length.
A long length jacket will be 1 inch longer in the body and 1 1/2 inch longer in the sleeve.

For example - a Regular length 44 jacket will be 26 inches in length and have a 24.75 inch sleeve.
Add or subtract for a short or long length.

Now, the final measurement. And this is the hardest and most misunderstood measurement.
This is called the "Half-Back".
It is taken from the spine out to where the sleeve seam of a jacket will fit. It is not where a shirt seam will be so it is sort of hard to take accurately without a wearing a good fitting
jacket.



I find that it is easier to use a yardstick to measure for the half-back. Notice please where the finger is in this photo. That is the half-back.

If you find that you just will not fit in a stock size - and if your budget allows, - may I suggest that you at least explore a Made-To-Measure jacket. It will fit and feel much better than buying a size large stock jacket if you need extra room in the belly or under the arms.

If you are not able to visit the jacket maker or seller in person. If you are ordering on-line. May I strongly suggest that you include your height and weight and three photos.
One front on, one from the side and one from the back. This will allow the person on the other end to see the slope of your shoulders the posture of your back, and the relationship between your chest and stomach.

[bodhran4me]

Thus the wording of my title, there is much confusion about nomenclature and I was seeking to convey that I am looking for something less formal than the Prince Charlie. In fact the styles shown by Steve would all pretty much suit me, though I do tend to like the epaulettes, preferably plaited. I also like alliteration! In a perfect world the jacket I would choose is the House of Edgar peat coloured Crail jacket though any of three cuff styles on the same jacket would be okay.

http://www.houseofedgar.com/acatalog/info_764.html

And as he pointed out in regards to the confusion in the naming of styles, their Crail jacket has Braemar cuffs which they refer to as Prince Charlie cuffs

Thanks to the Wizard for his insightful post.


ETA : Just saw Wizard's second post and am curious as to the reason for starting the sleeve measurement at the 1 " mark. I actually measured the sleeve of a jacket 'crown to cuff' as it lay on the bed for my measurements.