Basics of vests

[MichiganKyle]

Curious about combining vests with kilts without going full formal. And yes, I know there are several threads on vests, but the information is generally on more specific aspects of vests and I can't seem to put it all together in my mind without some basic groundwork.

I've got several vests from historical reenactment-type uses, mainly targeting American fashions of the 1900's, the 1920's, and the 1950's (I restore old cars, play ragtime piano, and volunteer at a railroad museum), so I have a number of vests already. But then I see folks on here who have specific ideas about combining vests with kilts. Some of you guys have tweed vests in some of the other threads that look great, but I don't know how to properly get started with one. So, I have several questions:

1. Do "normal" cut vests work well with kilts, or do they really need to be shorter?

2. What are the differences between more kilt-specific vests, such as (just looking at USA Kilts) an Argyll, Prince Charlie, Kilkenny, and some of the other ones I see on here but can't remember the names of?

3. What kind of a vest do you prefer when not worn with a jacket?

4. How about with a jacket, not for piping or full formal events but more want-to-look-nice-but-it's-cold-out?

5. If you were to recommend a color to start with, what would you recommend?

6. Any other pointers, such as on material or sizing?

[gsmacleod]

1. In my experience, no however it does depend on the waistcoat. I have a tweed waistcoat that is cut for a higher waisted pair of pants and it will work with the kilt. Generally a saxon waistcoat will be much too long and interfere with the sporran.

2. Generally a waistcoat for wear with a kilt with come with the jacket and will be matching material. For more formal occasions (black tie) a three button waistcoat is fairly common while for less formal situations, a five button waistcoat is often seen. There are exceptions to this as some will opt for a waistcoat in a matching fabric but a different colour or for a tartan waistcoat.

3. None.

4. I tend to wear waistcoats in cooler temperatures whether kilted or with saxon attire.

5. To me, this really depends on what works for you; I have a few matching waistcoats and with kilted attire, a dark brown tweed that I will wear occasionally. It is hard to go wrong with buff or burgundy IMO.

Here is a typical three button black barathea waistcoat with a PC; these tend to be quite short, falling just below the kilt band and it's important to make sure your kilt is worn at the appropriate height or you'll have an awful flash of white between waistcoat and kilt. IMO this waistcoat is a bit short for me but will work if the kilt has enough rise.



I have recently picked up a vintage regulation doublet in doeskin; this had a matching four button waistcoat. Similar to the PC waistcoat, fairly short but this one fits me better (as does the jacket).



I have a charcoal tweed with a five button waistcoat; this waistcoat is also quite short leaving plenty of room for a sporran.



I have a vintage lovat green tweed with a matching five button waistcoat; this one is a little longer but still leaves room for the sporran.



As mentioned, I also have a dark brown tweed waistcoat which is designed for saxon wear but I think, being shorter than most of my other saxon waistcoats, it works well with a kilt. This is a very heavy wool and has a herringbone pattern so I tend to not wear it with herringbone tweeds.



This is another shorter saxon waistcoat in a lighter brown; this is a lighter wool and also doesn't have as much texture so if I'm wearing an odd waistcoat with a tweed, this is often the one I will choose.



On occasion, I've also worn a knit vest with my kilt and I also like this look.



Hope this helps!

Shane

[Pleater]

And I'd call the white underwear a singlet as a vest would have short sleeves and possibly be higher at the neck with a placket at the front to fasten it.
A tank top is what launched me into the making of garments after buying a knitting machine, a sleeveless pullover with a deep U shaped neck - made in lurid colours which I produced by the dozen and sold for two pounds, a profit of one pound fifty over the price of the yarn.

There is an old song which has been going through my mind ever since I read an earlier post 'I can't do my bally bottom button up' - sigh.

A waistcoat was a vital accoutrement when I played guitar, with picks, plectrums and capos in the pockets - made in the brightest of colours and intended to be on show - so no satin back, just solid psychedelia and fully lined.

I notice that the image on the box of oats shows the upper part of the kilt not fitted tightly onto the body but a rather more / \ - I wonder if it is the result of a shorter fell, or simply being less closely fitted - though it is, of course, only an image, not reality.

[Father Bill]

No expert, but let me try:

1. Do "normal" cut vests work well with kilts, or do they really need to be shorter?

- Usually, no problem.

2. What are the differences between more kilt-specific vests, such as (just looking at USA Kilts) an Argyll, Prince Charlie, Kilkenny, and some of the other ones I see on here but can't remember the names of?

- Those are types of jackets. Vests generally, are vests.

3. What kind of a vest do you prefer when not worn with a jacket?

- I don't. To me, a vest without a jacket means that you took off the jacket because you were too warm or gave it to your girl to keep her warm, or were working and rolled up your shirtsleeves. Although it is frequently done these days, it is not traditionally proper. I'll get pushback, but I'm firm on this one. I'm a grumpy old man.

4. How about with a jacket, not for piping or full formal events but more want-to-look-nice-but-it's-cold-out?

- Yeah, sure. That's what they're for.

5. If you were to recommend a color to start with, what would you recommend?

- Believe it or not . . . red.

6. Any other pointers, such as on material or sizing?

- don't get a loose one, or so tight that you can't breathe either. A vest should fit closely but comfortably.

How's that?

[OC Richard]

As far as Day Dress tweed waistcoats go be aware that there were a variety of traditional styles many of which, today, you would have to go the bespoke route to acquire.

Here's a lovely vintage tweed Argyll with matching waistcoat; note the waistcoat has upper welted pockets and lower scalloped flap pockets.



Here is Yours Truly wearing a bespoke waistcoat, note the lower flapped pockets and upper welted pockets, a fairly common feature in the old days and seen fairly often today



By the way both of the above waistcoats are in a colour called "taupe" in the USA but "brown" in the UK. It's good to be aware of the different usages. And "vest" in the UK nowadays references an undergarment, while "waistcoat" is understood in both the USA and the UK and thus is a preferable term. (In the 1930s the situation in Scotland was like that of the USA today, with "waistcoat" and "vest" being interchangeable words for the over-garment.)

Here in the USA with Western Wear we have similar waistcoats, tweed with four functional welted pockets, and usually with lapels. These tend to work very well with kilts.



Here I am wearing an ordinary Eddie Bauer tweed vest intended for trousers but working perfectly with kilts. Like many modern waistcoats it lacks the upper pockets, which come in handy. If possible I always want my waistcoats to have four roomy functional pockets.



The basics are:

1) fabric: Traditionally waistcoats are tweed for Day Dress and Barathea for Evening Dress. (EDIT: I forgot to mention that Evening Dress jackets and waistcoats are also seen in velvet and tartan.)

2) cut of the "V" and number of buttons: The "V" in front is cut low, with three buttons, for Evening and high, with five or six buttons, for Day.

3) length: Waistcoats made for trousers are sometimes too long for kilt wear, you may need to buy a "short" length Saxon vest for wear with the kilts.

4) number of pockets: traditionally waistcoats had four pockets. Nowadays they usually have two, which I suppose is a cost-saving device.

5) style of pockets: waistcoats can have four welted pockets, though common in the old days was for the lower pockets to have flaps. The flaps could be rectangular, or scalloped to match the scalloped pocket flaps on an Argyll jacket. Not seen nowadays but sometimes seen in Victorian times was to have four, or even five, flapped pockets on the waistcoat.

6) back treatment. For wearing with a jacket a satin back is best as it allows the jacket and waistcoat to slide into position without binding. If a waistcoat will only be worn by itself you might want matching wool front and back. The satin can fade and discolour over time, becoming unsightly.

7) lapels. Traditional vests can lack lapels, or have a variety of lapel styles: notched, rounded, etc.

8) bottom edge: Traditional vests can be cut straight across the bottom, or have a "V" notch at the bottom.

BTW in Victorian times it was NOT the style to leave the bottom button unbuttoned. They usually buttoned all of the waistcoat buttons. Sometimes they would leave one or more of the upper buttons unbuttoned, but this wasn't common.

[Tomo]

My two-penneth:

1. Do "normal" cut vests work well with kilts, or do they really need to be shorter?

Depends on the waistcoat and the wear - but shorter often works best

2. What are the differences between more kilt-specific vests, such as (just looking at USA Kilts) an Argyll, Prince Charlie, Kilkenny, and some of the other ones I see on here but can't remember the names of?

Main differences are 3-button (worn with PC and Reg. Doublet) and 5-button worn with Argyll etc. However, style can vary in terms of collar and lapels, pockets (jetted or flaps), material (barathea, tweed, tartan, velvet, doeskin etc) and even the bottom (pointy bits of flat - I don't know the technical terms).

3. What kind of a vest do you prefer when not worn with a jacket?

Tweed 5-button - none of mine have collar and lapels but I am going to convert an old Harris Tweed sports jacket and that has lapels which I will keep as they are.

That said I have worn a black "evening" waistcoat for a beach BBQ - a 40th birthday party were the dress code was for gents to wear a bow-tie:



4. How about with a jacket, not for piping or full formal events but more want-to-look-nice-but-it's-cold-out?

Tweed - all my jackets are in matched sets. However, with the conversions I mentioned above, this is in a small grey check and I will pair it with a plain charcoal tweed jacket. Others wear contrasting or complimentary waistcoats to their jackets, some even tartan to match the kilt.

5. If you were to recommend a color to start with, what would you recommend?

Tweed for sure - prob. charcoal as a neutral goes with anything option or maybe green or brown depending on the kilt.

6. Any other pointers, such as on material or sizing?

Nope

[MichiganKyle]

That does help. Sounds like I was overthinking the vest/waistcoat side of things. A while back, I had tried a few of the ones I already have, but having almost no fashion sense whatsoever I didn't really know what would work and what would just look goofy. Thanks!

[Steve Ashton]

Perhaps it would also help to define the difference between "Vest" and "Waistcoat"

A Vest is an outer garment worn on its own. And is generally seen as a N. American item of clothing less common than in Europe.

A Waistcoat is an under garment meant to be worn under a jacket.

In general a Vest will have the same type of fabric in the back without the small adjuster belt. And a Waistcoat will have a satin back and an adjuster.

It used to be that a Waistcoat with satin back would never be worn without the jacket. A man wearing a jacket and waistcoat could remove the jacket when sitting, working, or if it was hot, but would always put the jacket back on when greeting someone or in the presence of a lady. They would never turn their back on someone showing their un-finished undergarments with satin back and adjuster belt. Sort of the same thinking about buttoning the jacket if standing up or greeting someone. (You still see some guys un-button their jacket before sitting and re-buttoning it when standing up.)

In the back a Waistcoat would be shorter than the front and would not cover, and be bulky over, the waistband of trousers. But in front would be longer and fully cover the waistband and braces. (but that was in the day when trousers were worn higher than today. And when there were different standards for a polite look in public.)

A Vest, being an outer garment, would be a similar length, covering the trouser waistband, front and back.
As trousers became to be worn lower, the vests and waistcoats became longer to cover the trouser waistband.

It is style of clothing that gives the garments - Waistcoat, Coat, and Overcoat their names.

Just some "old guy" trivia.