Vintage military kilt cloth query

[Troglodyte]

For many years, I have worn casually an ancient ex-army (Black Watch) kilt, as that regiment rather conveniently wears my clan's 'hunting' tartan. This kilt has always intrigued me, as the cloth from which it is made is much thicker, coarser and heavier than normally seen. The 'handle' much more like the cloth used for horse blankets than the kilting we are used to.

Many years ago, I acquired and passed on to a Mackenzie friend, a Highland Light Infantry (Mackenzie tartan) kilt in a similar cloth, that was never issued and that contained the maker's label and date - 1936. This kilt is very similar in style and construction to the HLI kilt, and has the same unnecessarily thick and bulky cream woollen lining.

I have been unable to find definitive information as to when this style and weight of cloth was introduced, what its linear weight was, and when it went out of service. If anyone has this information, I would be most grateful.

The pictures show the kilt in question, together with another kilt, in a heavy-weight cloth woven in the 1950s, for comparison. The difference between the two is similar to the difference between medium- and heavy-weight cloths seen nowadays.

[Father Bill]

I only wish I could have gotten a Sinclair modern in that weight!

[figheadair]

I have been unable to find definitive information as to when this style and weight of cloth was introduced, what its linear weight was, and when it went out of service. If anyone has this information, I would be most grateful.

You are referring to the army Cheviot cloth (so-called from the Cheviot wool) used for OR's kilts from around the beginning of the 20th century, possibly a little earlier, until around the 1970s. It was something like a 22oz cloth. The material for those later kilts was probably woven some time before it's last use.

Civilian kilts in Cheviot cloth were also offered by the likes of R. W. Forsyth as their 1907 catalogue shows. Whether it was the same weight as the military cloth I do not know.

[McMurdo]

Double post

[McMurdo]

I have 2 kilts in military weight. The first is from the Great War period in the Hunting Stewart tartan, the second is a Canadian Black Watch kilt from the 1950's. They are both as you describe.

Here is the Hunting Stewart (1914-1918, unsure of date but confident that it is from the Great War period)


The Black Watch (This is a Canadian kilt from the 1953 pattern)


The label in the Canadian Black Watch

[Troglodyte]

I have 2 kilts in military weight. The first is from the Great War period in the Hunting Stewart tartan, the second is a Canadian Black Watch kilt from the 1950's. They are both as you describe.

Here is the Hunting Stewart (1914-1918, unsure of date but confident that it is from the Great War period)


The Black Watch (This is a Canadian kilt from the 1953 pattern)


The label in the Canadian Black Watch

Yes, the cloth is very similar, even identical.

Part of the problem I have with my kilt, is that the maker's label has been removed. It also seems to have had some alteration - a sort of cut-and-shut job, as there is a sewn joint down the centre back pleat, which includes the waistband.

The joining is too neat and precise to make me think it could be the result of joining two damaged kilts, but it could be a repair of some kind. Curiously, the lining is one piece.

I have never seen a join of this kind on a military kilt (they are common otherwise) but it is the split in the waistband webbing that makes me suspicious. I have wondered if my kilt is a relic of the Great War, as when I acquired it, it had a matching waistcoat of obviously 1920s style, and with a self-material back.

[McMurdo]

Yes, the cloth is very similar, even identical.

Part of the problem I have with my kilt, is that the maker's label has been removed. It also seems to have had some alteration - a sort of cut-and-shut job, as there is a sewn joint down the centre back pleat, which includes the waistband.

The joining is too neat and precise to make me think it could be the result of joining two damaged kilts, but it could be a repair of some kind. Curiously, the lining is one piece.

I have never seen a join of this kind on a military kilt (they are common otherwise) but it is the split in the waistband webbing that makes me suspicious. I have wondered if my kilt is a relic of the Great War, as when I acquired it, it had a matching waistcoat of obviously 1920s style, and with a self-material back.

Here is the original post about the Hunting Stewart kilt there is a photo of the label here as well, just like yours, it has faded and can no longer be read.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...lection-94134/

[OC Richard]

You are referring to the army Cheviot cloth (so-called from the Cheviot wool) used for OR's kilts from around the beginning of the 20th century, possibly a little earlier, until around the 1970s.

That's interesting.

House Of Edgar still weaves (or did up until recently) a lighter-weight version, 18oz as I recall, of that traditional OR-style cloth.

I purchased a Royal Stewart kilt in that cloth, and made with the green binding. Edgar said they had done many of those, for the military I believe they said.

Yes the fabric is quite different from ordinary civilian 16oz worsted kilting cloth, more blanket-like. Due to the fuzzy surface the pattern of the tartan doesn't look as crisp. The sett size is rather larger.

Fairly recent photos of, for example, the Pipes & Drums of 4SCOTS, show a clear difference between the kilt of the Pipe Major (which looks more like civilian 16oz worsted) and the kilts of the other pipers (having that fuzzy look).

So my impression was that this fabric was still being used at least in the pre-RRS uniforms (antecedent dress) maintained by some of the Pipes & Drums. I'll look for photos showing this.

Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 3SCOTS' has a rather smaller sett-size. The relative fuzziness isn't apparent here, but the fabric of the OR's kilt looks identical to the military-spec kilt I purchased from HoE.



Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 4SCOTS (foreground) has the clear distinct tartan of civilian 16oz cloth, while the ORs' kilts have the fuzzy less-distinct pattern of the 18oz ORs' cloth. I've compared swatches of both cloths in a HoE sample-book, and seen both types of kilts in person, so I can assure you it's not an illusion of photography.



In this closeup of a piper of The Highlanders (pre-RRS) you can see how muted the red lines in the Cameron of Erracht tartan are.



In any case, this heavy wooly huge-sett fabric was still being made the last time I checked by House of Edgar. It's not the 22oz stuff, but it might be the closest to it that's widely available now.

[Rama4390]

I have a kilt in this type of cloth in the Cameron of Erracht tartan. Mine was made for the Australian Army in 1952. This kilt is very heavy compared to my band kilt & my own recently made 14oz kilt. The Colours in the photo look very much brighter than they do in person.

[Troglodyte]

That's interesting.

House Of Edgar still weaves (or did up until recently) a lighter-weight version, 18oz as I recall, of that traditional OR-style cloth.

I purchased a Royal Stewart kilt in that cloth, and made with the green binding. Edgar said they had done many of those, for the military I believe they said.

Yes the fabric is quite different from ordinary civilian 16oz worsted kilting cloth, more blanket-like. Due to the fuzzy surface the pattern of the tartan doesn't look as crisp. The sett size is rather larger.

Fairly recent photos of, for example, the Pipes & Drums of 4SCOTS, show a clear difference between the kilt of the Pipe Major (which looks more like civilian 16oz worsted) and the kilts of the other pipers (having that fuzzy look).

So my impression was that this fabric was still being used at least in the pre-RRS uniforms (antecedent dress) maintained by some of the Pipes & Drums. I'll look for photos showing this.

Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 3SCOTS' has a rather smaller sett-size. The relative fuzziness isn't apparent here, but the fabric of the OR's kilt looks identical to the military-spec kilt I purchased from HoE.



Here, note that the kilt of the PM of 4SCOTS (foreground) has the clear distinct tartan of civilian 16oz cloth, while the ORs' kilts have the fuzzy less-distinct pattern of the 18oz ORs' cloth. I've compared swatches of both cloths in a HoE sample-book, and seen both types of kilts in person, so I can assure you it's not an illusion of photography.



In this closeup of a piper of The Highlanders (pre-RRS) you can see how muted the red lines in the Cameron of Erracht tartan are.



In any case, this heavy wooly huge-sett fabric was still being made the last time I checked by House of Edgar. It's not the 22oz stuff, but it might be the closest to it that's widely available now.

The HoE swatch-books were one of my first points of reference, but the cloth now being made is quite different from this old stuff.

The current offering, although clearly a heavier weight, is smoother and flatter, and would make up into a superior grade kilt.

The cloth of these old army kilts seems aimed directly at work-a-day use, of a time when the soldier's life was lived in the kilt - thier civvies were sent home, so the cloth and the garment had to cope with every situation, from cermonial and barrack duties to active service under fire in wet and muddy trenches.

The War Office must have had tens of thousands of these superb kilts on their hands, following the general demobilisation at the end of the '14-'18 war, and when the regiments were taken out of the kilt for combat wear a few years later. Perhaps there is a warehouse of stores, long-forgotten about, packed with all this gear, just waiting to make its way onto the market.

After all, the likes of eBay is full of current issue RRoS surplus, and the British Army has never been smaller. In 1918, Britain had something like six million men in service.