X Marks the Scot - An on-line community of kilt wearers.

   X Marks Partners - (Go to the Partners Dedicated Forums )
USA Kilts website Celtic Croft website Celtic Corner website Houston Kiltmakers

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    14th June 21
    Location
    Fettercairn
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Genuine kilties in the movies

    Screenshot (20).jpg Screenshot (24).jpg Screenshot (90).jpg Screenshot (98).jpg Screenshot (100).jpg Screenshot (107).jpg Screenshot (120).jpg Screenshot (122).jpg

    How about these for kilts in the media..?

    No prizes for guessing which films they are from, as they are too well known, but I think they show good examples of when the Wardrobe Department has been given free rein when it comes to costume, and when the extras and bit-part players have worn their own clothes.

    But, before we start slating musical fantasies for their wild ideas, and feel our sensibilites affronted, the costumes in Brigadoon appear to have been near faithful copies of the MacIan's 1840s water-colours representing the various clans. And a bit of artistic licence can be forgiven.

    Razzle-dazzle aside for a moment, is Brigadoon really any worse than Outlander as a costume fantacy?

    I am willing to bet the price of a pint that the kiltied characters from the other films are in their own clothes - certainly the Highland Games lot and the elderly gents in the 1945 black-and-white movie.

    It's good to see what you might call natives in real native dress.

    And it's also good to think that 'Wardrobe' had the wit to let seasoned kilties do their own thing, and so allow them to bring a sense of relaxed authenticity to the scenes.

  2. The Following User Says 'Aye' to Troglodyte For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,905
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Not only are the Brigadoon costumes no worse than Outlander's, I would say that the Outlander costumes are an even greater distortion of mid-18th century Highland Dress than Brigadoon's.

    At least in Brigadoon you have the panoply of colourful tartans which was so characteristic of mid-to-late 18th century Highland outfits.

    The kilted men are wearing proper kilt hose and plausible shoes.

    In Outlander everyone is in dull brown and grey tartans and jackets, and wearing knee-high riding boots, for which there is no evidence whatever.

    Yes there are anachronisms in Brigadoon such as Victorian sword belts, plaid brooches, sporrans, Glengarries, and Kilmarnock bonnets. Though from a later period, these things are all actual items of Highland Dress.

    On the other hand the huge floppy Rastafarian bag-hats in Outlander weren't part of Highland Dress of any period.

    The one thing that Outlander gets a bit more correct are the shirts. Brigadoon has the Highlanders wearing the pirate shirts so loved by mid-20th century Hollywood (and these in wild colours) which never existed at any time or place whatever.

    Another thing besides the costumes is the hair: in the mid-18th century, as it was in the mid-20th, men were generally clean-shaven.

    The real Culloden and the Outlander Culloden.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 29th May 24 at 03:35 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  4. The Following 2 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Join Date
    27th October 09
    Location
    Kerrville, Texas
    Posts
    5,711
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    At least in Brigadoon you have the panoply of colourful tartans which was so characteristic of mid-to-late 18th century Highland outfits.

    The kilted men are wearing proper kilt hose and plausible shoes.
    I can't find static images online that show enough detail, but it looks like many of the kilted actors in Brigadoon are wearing some sort of leggings that don't enclose the foot. Basically like MoD "hose tops".

    It sure looks like they have bare ankles above their shoes. (Specifically the man in the red shirt in the middle of this photo, as well as the one on the left with the red kilt.)

    Last edited by Tobus; 29th May 24 at 04:08 AM.

  6. #4
    Join Date
    14th June 21
    Location
    Fettercairn
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    I can't find static images online that show enough detail, but it looks like many of the kilted actors in Brigadoon are wearing some sort of leggings that don't enclose the foot. Basically like MoD "hose tops".

    It sure looks like they have bare ankles above their shoes. (Specifically the man in the red shirt in the middle of this photo, as well as the one on the left with the red kilt.)

    Screenshot (26).jpg

    As far as I can see, all the 'Highland' characters appear to be wearing footless hose of some kind.

    If the wardrobe dept. was using MacIan's watercolours as a period style reference (I can think of no other that would suit better, other than MacLeay's work from 30 years later) they would have have a fairly wide set of options.

    One of which would be the MacMillan representative, who is not only bare-chested, but is wearing the little kilt and what James Logan tells us are called 'moggans' - stockings without feet. MacMillan's are diced or latticed in design, but those shown on the MacDuff chappie are a solid colour blue.

    All MacIan's other individuals are either bare-footed, or have hose covering the feet inside some kind of footwear.

    A few show the over-sized, puff-sleeved shirts like those on the Brigadoon lot.

    But Brigadoon was a spectacular musical made in a rather gloomy post-war period, so a but of artistic licence (even if used to the full) can be forgiven. I can't imagine anyone would have seen it as a true-to-life documentary.

    Interestingly, people's expectations of Highland dress have changed somewhat since Outlander was aired. A long-established kiltmaker friend based here in the Highlands, has received a number of requests for a 'real' kilt (as seen in Outlander) and not one of the horrid 'modern' sort that everyone wears!

    I wonder if there is a 'kilted extras' group that film-makers turn to for Scottish-themed movies. It would be pretty good fun to be a member...

  7. #5
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,905
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks, I hadn't noticed that.

    Now I want to find a photo showing more clearly what they're wearing.

    It does appear to be some sort of Allen Brothers > Costumes of the Clans > McIan fantasy.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  8. #6
    Join Date
    2nd January 10
    Location
    Lethendy, Perthshire
    Posts
    4,638
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Thanks, I hadn't noticed that.

    Now I want to find a photo showing more clearly what they're wearing.

    It does appear to be some sort of Allen Brothers > Costumes of the Clans > McIan fantasy.
    Richard, this may help. clearly footless hose and trews.

    brigadoon-from-left-jimmie-thompson-gene-kelly-van-johnson-eddie-quillan-HBJXTD.jpg

    Compare with this work around / pseudo pair made for the artist William Skeoch Cumming for use on his models.

    233791_view 06_06.jpg

  9. #7
    Join Date
    6th May 21
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    143
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobus View Post
    I can't find static images online that show enough detail, but it looks like many of the kilted actors in Brigadoon are wearing some sort of leggings that don't enclose the foot. Basically like MoD "hose tops".

    It sure looks like they have bare ankles above their shoes. (Specifically the man in the red shirt in the middle of this photo, as well as the one on the left with the red kilt.)

    I think it's important to remember the balance that must be struck by costuming between being as authentic as possible while also maintaining practical dress. As Brigadoon is a musical from a particular theatrical tradition, the clothing would need to be made first and foremost for ease of movement and comfort for dancing, then for visual effect--puffy sleeves and flowy collars, while not authentic, increase the effect of every upper body movement, which is critical in *stage production--then for whatever authenticity can be maintained subordinate to the first two priorities. Footless leggings are a compromise that makes sense here, as the ensemble characters are all wearing soft dance shoes, which would not accommodate authentic Highland hose or stirrup-style trews.

    *yes, Brigadoon is a film, but it is done in the classic theatrical style
    Last edited by JPS; 13th June 24 at 08:03 AM.

  10. #8
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,905
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by JPS View Post
    Brigadoon is a film, but it is done in the classic theatrical style.
    Yes it was an extremely popular musical debuting on Broadway in 1947 (running for over 500 performances, followed by a North American tour) and London's West End in 1949 (over 600 performances).

    We pipers always end up doing Brigadoon runs. There are a number of pieces in the score correctly written for the pipes, and I believe all the 1940s and 1950s companies included a pair of pipers.

    I performed one run of Brigadoon where the decision was made to use correct Scottish dancing throughout. A man qualified as both a Highland Dance and RSCDS instructor was hired to choreograph the dance numbers.

    A Scottish fiddler (Scottish born and raised) played for the social dance numbers, I played for the Sword Dance number and of course the "funeral piobaireachd" number.
    Last edited by OC Richard; 13th June 24 at 11:28 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  11. The Following 4 Users say 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


  12. #9
    Join Date
    14th June 21
    Location
    Fettercairn
    Posts
    553
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by OC Richard View Post
    Not only are the Brigadoon costumes no worse than Outlander's, I would say that the Outlander costumes are an even greater distortion of mid-18th century Highland Dress than Brigadoon's.

    At least in Brigadoon you have the panoply of colourful tartans which was so characteristic of mid-to-late 18th century Highland outfits.

    The kilted men are wearing proper kilt hose and plausible shoes.

    In Outlander everyone is in dull brown and grey tartans and jackets, and wearing knee-high riding boots, for which there is no evidence whatever.

    Yes there are anachronisms in Brigadoon such as Victorian sword belts, plaid brooches, sporrans, Glengarries, and Kilmarnock bonnets. Though from a later period, these things are all actual items of Highland Dress.

    On the other hand the huge floppy Rastafarian bag-hats in Outlander weren't part of Highland Dress of any period.

    The one thing that Outlander gets a bit more correct are the shirts. Brigadoon has the Highlanders wearing the pirate shirts so loved by mid-20th century Hollywood (and these in wild colours) which never existed at any time or place whatever.

    Another thing besides the costumes is the hair: in the mid-18th century, as it was in the mid-20th, men were generally clean-shaven.

    The real Culloden and the Outlander Culloden.

    You're dead right about the colours - or lack of them.

    Where did this fashion for dull greys and browns come from, I wonder. It's all a bit too muddy for my taste.

    The 1948 Bonnie Prince Charlie film with David Niven in the title role, is another fantasy romp - but at least there is the sort of tartan and colour mix that the 1746 Morier painting shows. Many of the kilted extras could be wearing their own kit, and the obviously modern style detracts slightly from the sense of authenticity.

    Michael Caine in the 1971 Kidnapped is all tartaned-up, and more like Morier's men, and his accent is as fun as Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in Mary Poppins. It's several decades since I saw the film, but I remember the battle scenes and those with tartaned Highlanders gave the right impression at the time.

    But hey, it's only make-believe play-acting, so what the hell..? Only people like us ever notice such things.

  13. #10
    Join Date
    18th October 09
    Location
    Orange County California
    Posts
    10,905
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    You're dead right about the colours - or lack of them.

    Where did this fashion for dull greys and browns come from, I wonder.
    I think the culprit was DC Dalgliesh.

    Here it is in his own words:





    The tartans Dalgliesh introduced in the late 1940s, which they called "reproduction" colours, had these substitutions

    Green > brown
    Blue > grey
    Black > (unchanged)
    Scarlet > dull claret-red

    At some point this entire colour-scheme was adopted by Lochcarron, who re-named it "weathered" colours.

    Though not using reproduction/weathered tartans, and not depicting "ancient" Highlanders, chronologically the next appearance of brown tartans was probably Tunes of Glory (1960).

    It was a strange choice due to none of the Scottish Highland regiments wearing a tartan remotely like that.



    As for Hollywood using the reproduction/weathered colour scheme for "ancient" Highlanders, it might have started with Rob Roy (1995, top right).

    It continues to this day with the current and hugely popular Outlander (2014-present, bottom right).

    Here are Hollywood "ancient Highlanders" compared to actual old portraits.

    BTW it's my theory that the costume designer saw some old images of Highlanders with belted plaids, and other images showing small kilts with long plaids wrapped around the body, and not realising that these were two distinct forms of dress, conflated the two, creating the bizarre thing Liam Neeson can be seen wearing.

    As we see in Outlander, Hollywood costumers insist on a strip of tartan going diagonally across the chest even when a belted plaid is clearly intended.

    Last edited by OC Richard; 13th June 24 at 11:07 AM.
    Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte

  14. The Following User Says 'Aye' to OC Richard For This Useful Post:


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v4.2.0