Box vs Knife Pleats

[CBH]

I just discovered that the US Tartan Museum is located in Franklin NC.

https://scottishtartansmuseum.org/

On their site, they offer 3 kilt types. One of which is a box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over. Its not clear why they offer this single type of "historic" kilt and no others.

I was only surprised because I have not seen that posted here, and there are plenty of Kilt Historians active on our forum.

I was curious about this change in tradition. Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use. They're obviously easier to sew and use less material, which is why I presumed Pakistanis use it. I did not know there was potentially a historic tie-in as well.

[jhockin]

If you use the search function ( top right corner), and search terms like : : 4 yd. Box- pleated; box- pleat; etc., you will find a long list of posts relating to box- pleated kilts.

[OC Richard]

...box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over.

Peter would know best, but I will say that of the 5 kilted Highland regiments that survived the 1809 cuts the 78th, 79th, and 93rd used box pleats up until these regiments were amalgamated, and the Royal Regiment of Scotland today uses box pleats.

I don't know how far back it goes, but at some point the 42nd and 92nd adopted knife pleats.

So in the Scottish Highland regiments knife pleats were always in the minority and have now been abandoned altogether.

Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use.

I don't think I've ever seen a Pakistani boxpleated kilt except for the military re-enactor kilts that What Price Glory was having made, their kilts for the 79th, 78th, and 93rd Highlanders being boxpleated of course.

Box pleats aren't easier to make, nor do they take less material, than knife pleats.

I took a kiltmaking class from Elsie Stuehmeyer who in the 1950s worked for the major Scottish kiltmaker of the time, Thomas Gordon & Son, where she made tons of military kilts both boxpleated and knifepleated.

She said up until a certain point in the construction (after the pleats are stitched) the two kilts were identical, with the same amount of fabric, same number of pleats, and same depth of pleats.

She demonstrated how she would fold each pleat in order to create the boxpleated look. She said it was a pain to do them, as it added an extra step to the making.

If you're referring to the "four yard boxpleated kilt", there's no 1-to-1 relationship between the number of yards and the sort of pleats. You can have a boxpleated kilt with four, six, or eight yards, ditto knifepleated kilts.

My impression is that Matt Newsome, perhaps based on a specific museum kilt, started making and selling 4-yard boxpleated kilts as a US-based historical re-creation. I'd never heard of such kilts until I learned about Matt and the Tartans Museum.

I collect vintage Highland Dress catalogues from the Scottish makers from c1905 up through the 1970s and none of those Scottish makers mention kilts like that. Rather, they offered ordinary knifepleated modern kilts in 6, 7, and 8 yards.

Here's a military 8-yard boxpleated kilt from the 78th Highlanders/Seaforth Highlanders



Here's a closeup of the pleats on an 8-yard boxpleated kilt from the 79th Highlanders/Cameron Highlanders.

You can see the extra fold in each pleat.

[CBH]

I knew OC Richard would know.

I can see the box pleats pretty good in the bottom photo, but its hard to tell in the top one. If Pakistani kilts are not done that way, they still look kinda similar to the bottom photo. They certainly don't look like tight knife pleats you typically see on Scottish knife pleats. But maybe they're just so much bigger ? Hard to say..........

They don't mind copying copy-protected Tartan designs, so why don't they copy the pleating style ? Would acrylic not hold the crease well enough to pull it off ?

[GG]

I knew OC Richard would know.

I can see the box pleats pretty good in the bottom photo, but its hard to tell in the top one. If Pakistani kilts are not done that way, they still look kinda similar to the bottom photo. They certainly don't look like tight knife pleats you typically see on Scottish knife pleats. But maybe they're just so much bigger ? Hard to say..........

They don't mind copying copy-protected Tartan designs, so why don't they copy the pleating style ? Would acrylic not hold the crease well enough to pull it off ?

Pakistani made kilts are knife pleated, at least mine are, as you can see on the photos:







The fabric may not allow for as crisp pleats as in my best Scottish wool kilts.

[tripleblessed]

My impression is that Matt Newsome, perhaps based on a specific museum kilt, started making and selling 4-yard boxpleated kilts as a US-based historical re-creation. I'd never heard of such kilts until I learned about Matt and the Tartans Museum.

IIRC I was told years ago that Matt was taught by Bob Martin, who did box pleats based on his personal research. Matt left the the Tartan Museum to take a
position as a college chaplain, and we no longer see him at the Stone Mountain Games. His other obligations got him backlogged with kilts and he ceased taking new orders until catching up; I don't know where he stands at the moment.

I don't know if Bob Martin is still around or active with kilts, but both he and Matt published their writings, and those who have one of their kilts treasure them.
My understanding is that Bob recommended four yard box pleat kilts of heavyweight cloth; he and Matthew being based in the Carolinas were aware of the
warmth and weight of 8-yarders in the South. They provided a solution. Four yards for weight and cooler, 16oz. cloth for durability rather than more yards of lighter cloth.

That's all I've got, and I think it is at least loosely connected with reality.

[GG]

IIRC I was told years ago that Matt was taught by Bob Martin, who did box pleats based on his personal research. Matt left the the Tartan Museum to take a
position as a college chaplain, and we no longer see him at the Stone Mountain Games. His other obligations got him backlogged with kilts and he ceased taking new orders until catching up; I don't know where he stands at the moment.

Matt A.C. Newsome has got a new life, which may not include kilts, it seems:

https://medium.com/@macnewsome/about

https://www.catholic365.com/author/matthew-newsome/

[OC Richard]

Matt A.C. Newsome has got a new life, which may not include kilts, it seems:

https://medium.com/@macnewsome/about

https://www.catholic365.com/author/matthew-newsome/

Go Matt!!

Good for him, he seems to have plenty of irons in the fire.

[OC Richard]

Yes it seems due to the military continuing to add yardage to their kilts through the course of the 19th century more of each pleat's cloth would be hidden in a fold underneath.

I think that "box-knife pleat" name makes sense because the pleats look like box pleats on the surface but are sort of knife pleats (all the pleats overlapping in one direction) underneath.

[jsrnephdoc]

Matt A.C. Newsome has got a new life, which may not include kilts, it seems:

https://medium.com/@macnewsome/about

https://www.catholic365.com/author/matthew-newsome/

From his website, it looks as though he still sells lovely kilt pins from Margaret Morrison and also some gorgeous diced hose from House of Cheviot