The Scots Who Left

[Jock Scot]

Sorry to disagree with you on this point, Jock; disagreeing with you is difficult for me.

.

I would not loose any sleep over it my dear chap, people often disagree with me. Life would be exceedingly boring otherwise!

[Joshua]

One of my clients, upon finding out I was a games athlete, told me she her parents were from Scotland, and her grandparents still lived there.

She said at her brother's wedding, her father (born in Scotland) was the only person not wearing a kilt... in his words he had to wear one in school and he'd never wear "that itchy thing" again. Her grandfather and uncles from Scotland wore them, as well as her American-born brother (who wore his dad's hand-me-down for the wedding).

Funny though, her family was from Glasgow and she's a late-20's/early-30's gal. I'm guessing her parents would have been in school no earlier than the late 50's through 60's. Were kilted schools common in the lowlands at that time?

[Jock Scot]

Common? I doubt it. I did not ever go to school in the lowlands(that includes Glasgow) and most certainly not in 1950/60's so I can only surmise. At a guess there would be very few children going to School there, wearing the kilt, no matter what decade you care to choose.

[Peter Crowe]

One of my clients, upon finding out I was a games athlete, told me she her parents were from Scotland, and her grandparents still lived there.

She said at her brother's wedding, her father (born in Scotland) was the only person not wearing a kilt... in his words he had to wear one in school and he'd never wear "that itchy thing" again. Her grandfather and uncles from Scotland wore them, as well as her American-born brother (who wore his dad's hand-me-down for the wedding).

Funny though, her family was from Glasgow and she's a late-20's/early-30's gal. I'm guessing her parents would have been in school no earlier than the late 50's through 60's. Were kilted schools common in the lowlands at that time?

My father (born 1939) wore an ex-Army Black Watch kilt to school in the suburbs of Glasgow (Lanarkshire) during the early to mid 1950's. The school which was a normal state senior secondary school (the same one I attended almost 25 years later) had a uniform with trousers and a blazer which had been suspended due to the war but with rationing and shortages it wasn't reintroduced again until the later 50's. My father has no psychological scars and still wears his kilt. He was influential in my kilt wearing education.

His kilt wasn't school uniform just how some boys were dressed at the time, he says my granny (originally from Macduff and known for her thriftiness) bought him the kilt as it was a bargain. At the time he had a 'better' civilian kilt for Boy Scouts and Church. My father's first pair of adult long trousers were part of his Merchant Navy Uniform when he went to sea as an apprentice/Deck Officer cadet in 1956.

The only school I know of who have the kilt as a uniform is the Princess Victoria military school in Dunblane. Previously my father had briefly attended it's sister school, The Duke of York's military school in Dover, Kent (1951/52). At the time pupils wore battledress with the cap badge of their father's Regiment or Corps.

[Burly Brute]

Maybe it's because I just read "Surprised by Joy" in a little less than a week for a class, or because I am trying to balance the minor prophets study and the parables of Christ, or dealing with the ethical theories of mankind or the politics of my own nation and it's current value in the global society, but those 18 sentence paragraphs killed me! Haha. I get where he was going, but I probably didnt get a whole lot out of it. I disagree, however, with his minor conclusion that America was ever that "kind" to the Irish.

I for one am glad for ancestral heritage pride in America, otherwise, I would feel quite empty in regards to my roots. Those who arent born in a country which is still in infancy can't understand what it's like to feel zero kinship. Especially for those of us who live so close to a country (arizona/mexico border), which despite similiar circumstance, has a people who have very strong ties to their lineage.

Perhaps I am just crying over spilt milk, but I am thankful to be accepted. And I think it's the respect of the past which influences the future that makes America, America.

I tend to ramble.....sorry gang.

[Gael Ridire]

"Respect for the past" bothers me a lot! I don't think there is that much respect because so much of our country's past is not taught in school. When I look at my genealogy I figure that 94% came to America for religious freedom. The first was Eleanore Newton who came to Plymouth Colony in 1621, and the last my 2nd great-grandfather William O'Bryan/Bryant who arrived in the late 1850s to Colorado, both came for religious freedom. My children were not allowed to talk about religious freedom or bring up the subject. The Colonial period was glossed over in a couple pages with no mention of the struggles on both sides to survive. The Revolution against Britain got a little time, but not much. Next was the Civil War with a few pages. A mention of WWI & WWII. Nothing about Korea or Vietnam. Society today is so Politically Correct that I can't stand it. Why did my 2nd great-grandfather change his surname from O'Bryan to Bryant? For survival the time being the end of the Potato Famine. Remember the saying, "Irish need not apply."

About 15 years ago on a local TV program some teenagers were asked about ethnicity and they commented that they looked to the day when there wouldn't be any, that we would all mesh together. This outlook saddens me! I live in the Rocky Mountains in the American West, and I dearly wish that I could experience neighborhood ethnicity that exists in the east. To me ethnicity is a good thing, it brings color to a bland existence! I don't look at what the differences are between ethnic groups, but what is common. But to someone from the east the cowboys, etc., of the west is exciting, different, and to me it is boring, the same ol' thing.

Got off track, parts of American society might have respect for the past, but in general I don't think so. Why does one Iraq veteran get all the help he needs for his wounds, but the guy sitting next to him with the same wounds gets nothing? Over 200 years ago Morgan's Riflemen saved the day at the Battle of Saratoga in New York, and one could trace their trail through New Jersey to the Brandywine in southern Pennsylvania because of the bloody footprints in the snow. Half of the regiment had no shoes because Congress wouldn't spend the money. Respect for the past?

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Irish Jack thank you for giving us this link.
One of the great things about this forum is the many things you get to learn that various members bring to the table.

I see many of the points brought out by the author of the 3 articles in strong evidence here on the forum.

One thing that intrigues me is this:Lets say the last one of your relatives to actually be Scottish came over to America,say,150 years ago,and in the mean time all contact with any distant relatives who remain in Scotland has been lost.Reasonably between that time and then there has been 4 to 5 generations to grow up and get married,then have children.So every time there is a marriage,unless one marries a Scot or the close kin of one,another culture is brought to bear on your family makeup.

By the time we get to our time,there are possibly at least 7(aprox) different cultural backgrounds besides Scottish that have brought their own unique and very interesting and valid flavours to your family background,give or take.
What I'm posing here is not claiming to be geneologicly(?) correct,just building a point.

My question is,what is it that makes one decide to cleave to Scotland as some sort of ancestral mecca,when to be fair you could just as likely choose one of the other cultures from one of your forefathers that is actually much nearer in time to you than an 1850's Scot.
Or are there some out there who perhaps strap on a kilt for a highland games one week,then tug a white smock over their head and tie bands around thier upper calves over white pants and go dance round a may pole at a sort of 'remember merry england' festival the next weekend?Are you folk that celebrate what is long past cultural histories, as interested in giving equal creedence to all of the cultures that have gathered to your backgrounds?
Or does Scotland just sort of bowl the others over like ninepins?I just feel it's an interesting topic and wondered if the spiritual connection to Scotalnd can also be felt with the other backgrounds that you must bump past to reach back that far into history.

[Lyle1]

My question is,what is it that makes one decide to cleave to Scotland as some sort of ancestral mecca,when to be fair you could just as likely choose one of the other cultures from one of your forefathers that is actually much nearer in time to you than an 1850's Scot.
Or are there some out there who perhaps strap on a kilt for a highland games one week,then tug a white smock over their head and tie bands around thier upper calves over white pants and go dance round a may pole at a sort of 'remember merry england' festival the next weekend?Are you folk that celebrate what is long past cultural histories, as interested in giving equal creedence to all of the cultures that have gathered to your backgrounds?
Or does Scotland just sort of bowl the others over like ninepins?I just feel it's an interesting topic and wondered if the spiritual connection to Scotalnd can also be felt with the other backgrounds that you must bump past to reach back that far into history.

You raise some valid questions, but any one American can only answer for himself. There is no universal answer because America is not defined by a single culture. What is normal in one area of the US might not be recognized in another part of the US. We can, culturally be very different, and still be Americans. And most emphatically, yes, some of us do celebrate many cultures. (Morris dancers are not all that common in America, but I have seen them.)

In many parts of the US, the celebration of one's cultural or ethnic heritage is encouraged. Is that the case in other countries? Even the little town where I live has an International Festival where people come together, many in the dress of their ancestors, to share their customs and their food (wonderful food!). Last year, I wore my kilt and Argyl jacket, and worked at the Italian booth most of the day (I am a member of the local Sons of Italy in America lodge). I do not have any Greek ancestry (that I know of), but I have already marked the date of the local Greek festival on my calendar.

I have identified ancestors who were born in what are, today, a dozen different countries. I do not have emotional ties to all of them, and I do not know why that is, but it is not important to me. I think most of us largely reflect the way we were raised. I grew up in a multi-cultural neighborhood in an industrial city in the American northeast. I was exposed to a lot of customs and food that were not part of my family's ancestral heritage, but they did become part of my personal heritage; they are what I learned. Why would I not continue to enjoy them?

[Peter Crowe]

Irish Jack thank you for giving us this link.
One of the great things about this forum is the many things you get to learn that various members bring to the table.

I see many of the points brought out by the author of the 3 articles in strong evidence here on the forum.

One thing that intrigues me is this:Lets say the last one of your relatives to actually be Scottish came over to America,say,150 years ago,and in the mean time all contact with any distant relatives who remain in Scotland has been lost.Reasonably between that time and then there has been 4 to 5 generations to grow up and get married,then have children.So every time there is a marriage,unless one marries a Scot or the close kin of one,another culture is brought to bear on your family makeup.

By the time we get to our time,there are possibly at least 7(aprox) different cultural backgrounds besides Scottish that have brought their own unique and very interesting and valid flavours to your family background,give or take.
What I'm posing here is not claiming to be geneologicly(?) correct,just building a point.

My question is,what is it that makes one decide to cleave to Scotland as some sort of ancestral mecca,when to be fair you could just as likely choose one of the other cultures from one of your forefathers that is actually much nearer in time to you than an 1850's Scot.
Or are there some out there who perhaps strap on a kilt for a highland games one week,then tug a white smock over their head and tie bands around thier upper calves over white pants and go dance round a may pole at a sort of 'remember merry england' festival the next weekend?Are you folk that celebrate what is long past cultural histories, as interested in giving equal creedence to all of the cultures that have gathered to your backgrounds?
Or does Scotland just sort of bowl the others over like ninepins?I just feel it's an interesting topic and wondered if the spiritual connection to Scotalnd can also be felt with the other backgrounds that you must bump past to reach back that far into history.

Living here, I have often wondered about this too. My observations are that there are as many answers as there are people to be honest. Many Americans do celebrate all their different heritages in a compartmentalised way, some in a way that blends them.

One guy I worked with (an extremely nice bloke and a good man) has the most obvious of Irish names, said he knew his background was Irish but he'd visited Ireland as part of his previous job, and discovered he felt no emotional connection whatsoever, and was therefore just an American, as that was what he identified with. (Given my view that my antecedent family within living memory are much dearer to me than some far off ancestors whose lives were far removed from mine I got his point entirely.)

I also have met some who favour the ethnic heritage of the parent they felt closest too, or of a much beloved grandparent. In this regard America truly is a melting pot.

I think for those of us from Scotland (or Ireland) who attend heritage based events in North America, it is a useful reminder that what is being celebrated is a Scottish (or Irish) heritage transmitted down through the diaspora group however loosely defined, and from it's own cultural perspective. To compare it to a similar event in our homeland (Scotland or Ireland) misses the point.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

I agree Vincimus Gradatim,for me I find it more natural to identify in a full and realistic way with family that were close to me as I went through,and go through life.But of course each to their own.

Lyle1 the community which you speak of sounds a real joy!That sort of mixed festival of differing cultures,particularly the foods,must be so much fun!The variety is great to imagine.

I mean,I love it to see my weans delight as they help me turn out a batch of tattie scones,or thier shrieks of laughter when I'm preparing a clooty dumpling ready for boiling,and I ask them to come 'smack it's bottom',the extra bonus being that I am passing to them recipes that came from Scotland from within our family.But even back in Scotland none of my family there live purely on Scots fare.Kebabs are hugely popular,as is a good curry,and 'chinkies carry oot' is high on the list for those nights when the wifie has a night off the cooking!

Thanks for sharing,Lyle1.