Tie with a Prince Charlie

[Gauranga]

Rocky at USA kilts is starting a rental line.
Give him a buzz to see if he can do Argylls. He's only an hour away.

I have 2 kilts from him and and Argyle jacket and vest. I was going to get a third kilt for the wedding and a new jacket. Rocky is great and if he's renting I'm DEFINITELY gonna give him the business.

Hey Rocky! Expect a PM.

[A Robertson]

I found this thread very interesting, and found myself agreeing with most of the comments both 'for' and 'against'!
I have a PC and do not like bow ties. I usually wear it with a silk 'scrunch' tie - which seems to be acceptable in the UK. Although I own a 3 button waiscoat, I prefer to wear my PC with a 5 button one (mainly because of my age and size - I don't have a 'six pack' - I done better than that - I got me a 'barrel'!). I also wear a turned down collar - white shirts only.
I am beginning to think that a lot of the comments on this forum maybe a cultural thing, - what is done in the UK is not neccessarily done in USA (or any other country) and vice versa - and it maybe only in the USA that everyone follows the rules to the letter (not that there is anything wrong with that! - quite the opposite!).
If anyone would care to Google search 'ebay.uk' - 'Prince Charlie Jacket', you will find many UK kilt companies advertising their PCs with photos of models wearing all manner of shirts and ties - some even wearing belts. I am certain these companies would not advertise their goods in this way if it was in the remotest considered incorrect. (I could be wrong).
There is also a photo of Rod Stewart (to be found with a Google image search) wearing a kilt, PC and no tie, with his Ghillies tied almost at his knee cap! - I have absolutely no idea if this is correct, acceptable or just his 'own thing'.

[Father Bill]

I'm a long way from being expert on anything in this world, but my observations lead me to believe that shops touting themselves as fashionable often tend to look for what they can do that is different rather than for what they can do well. I wouldn't use them as exemplars.

On the other hand, of course every part of the world has its own fashion sense of "what is done and not." As a parallel, I made much of my reputation in the school system (my former career) as a so-called expert with computers. (I wasn't.) I was often asked what kind of computer to buy for a first purchase. I always recommended that folks get what their employers and friends had, so that they would be compatible. The same goes for clothing. Wear what those about you wear in order to be seen as "doing it right," but always remember that you can tweak it in the direction that you know is more proper. Example: Just because everyone else wears white hose, doesn't mean that you have to.

Cheers & blessings,

Bill+

[Jordan]

I have to agree with Father Bill, I'm in the uk (although not currently.) and I wouldn't recommend eBay or even what 99% of kilt shops advertise.
For example my "local" kilt shop has a maniquin with white hose a prince Charlie jacket three button vest ruche tie and a belt, and every time I see it I think there's just too much tie on show.

Jordan

[OC Richard]

Well if we go back to the 1860s Prince Charlies weren't around and men would wear standup collars and bow ties with outdoor tweed jackets



The first I see Prince Charlies is in Highland Dress catalogues from the 1930s where they are spoken of as a newfangled thing suited to young fashionable men. Here they are in 1936



They're usually shown with wing collar shirts and bowties, or with lace jabots.

Now forward to the late 1970s and many Pipe Bands were looking for a more comfortable alternative to what most Pipe Bands had been wearing up to that time: either military-style Full Dress (doublets, feather bonnets, horsehair sporrans, spats, etc) or elaborate Evening Dress (Regulation Doublets, tartan full hose, buckled shoes, belted plaids, lace jabots, etc).

What many bands hit upon was to use the Prince Charlie but without waistcoat and with long tie, and with Arran hose and ghillies. Here it is in 1980



This dress lived on at least here in SoCal until quite recently

[Chas]

I found this thread very interesting, and found myself agreeing with most of the comments both 'for' and 'against'!
I have a PC and do not like bow ties. I usually wear it with a silk 'scrunch' tie - which seems to be acceptable in the UK. Although I own a 3 button waiscoat, I prefer to wear my PC with a 5 button one (mainly because of my age and size - I don't have a 'six pack' - I done better than that - I got me a 'barrel'!). I also wear a turned down collar - white shirts only.
I am beginning to think that a lot of the comments on this forum maybe a cultural thing, - what is done in the UK is not neccessarily done in USA (or any other country) and vice versa - and it maybe only in the USA that everyone follows the rules to the letter (not that there is anything wrong with that! - quite the opposite!).
If anyone would care to Google search 'ebay.uk' - 'Prince Charlie Jacket', you will find many UK kilt companies advertising their PCs with photos of models wearing all manner of shirts and ties - some even wearing belts. I am certain these companies would not advertise their goods in this way if it was in the remotest considered incorrect. (I could be wrong).
There is also a photo of Rod Stewart (to be found with a Google image search) wearing a kilt, PC and no tie, with his Ghillies tied almost at his knee cap! - I have absolutely no idea if this is correct, acceptable or just his 'own thing'.

I don't want to get at you A Robertson, but I think you are wrong on most counts.

Scrunch ties have become accepted, only because that is what rental companies supply (like the infamous white hose). Quite often these are corporate decisions, which then filter down to the smaller retailer. The scrunch tie originates with the wedding industry - cheap to make and can be had in any one of 144 different colours to match the bridesmaids outfits. It wasn't long before the kilt rental industry had to follow suit. And the deed was done - a new fashion trend. Little does anybody know that it was invented by a little wizened old man in Milan, who has never seen a kilt.

I think we should all realise that all advertising is a con and what we see on our screens and in our magazines and newspapers is probably not related to the truth in any way. A vendor will show his product to best advantage. If he can make more by displaying it in a way that is divergent from correct usage he will.

Regards

Chas

[Shedlock2000]

There is a popular misconception that the PC is at the top of the range - it is not. It is mid-range at best. Men want to wear their best for a wedding and mistakenly choose the PC as that jacket.

If we start at the bottom and work up.

1 - Tweed Jacket, no waistcoat - Day Wear

2 - Tweed Jacket, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

3 - Black Argyle, no waistcoat - Day Wear

4 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

5 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

6 - Prince Charlie, no waistcoat - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

7 - Prince Charlie, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

8 - Regulation Doublet - with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

9 - Sheriffmuir, with high cut waistcoat (6 button+) - Black Tie or White Tie

10 Montrose, no waistcoat - White Tie

NOTE - There are 1/2 and 1/4 stages in between each number.
a - Brown and Green Tweed is seen as 'Country' or 'Rural', whereas Blue and Grey Tweed is seen as 'In Town' and 'Business'
b - Waistcoats that are matching the jacket are one step higher than waistcoats that are complimentary colours.
c - Waistcoats that are bias cut tartan rank higher than straight cut tartan and both are higher than those in b.
d - Leather buttons are better than plastic, as are real horn or antler.
e - Real silver buttons are higher up the chain than steel cut and the buttons in d.
f - Argyle style jackets come in a variety of colours

These are just the major variations. There are dozens more subtle variations that are often not seen, but known only to the wearer.

The point being that the PC is a tuxedo equivalent. You wear a PC and you, more or less, have to wear a bow tie. Because that is what you wear with a PC.

One last little point, but the biggest overall. Are you intending on being an equal partner in your marriage? If yes, then you should really decide what tie you will wear.

Regards

Chas

This is a wonderful list of etiquette for occasions! Thanks Chas, dutifully saved!

[Shedlock2000]

I don't have a PC, but if I did I would only wear it with a bow tie. Show your intended some episodes of Matt Smith's version of Doctor Who. As he says, "Bow ties are cool!"

And they are!!!! I've rocked one for years! I love them - but only the self-tie ones....... And, Dr. Who can't be wrong!

[Glen]

There is a popular misconception that the PC is at the top of the range - it is not. It is mid-range at best. Men want to wear their best for a wedding and mistakenly choose the PC as that jacket.

If we start at the bottom and work up.

1 - Tweed Jacket, no waistcoat - Day Wear

2 - Tweed Jacket, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

3 - Black Argyle, no waistcoat - Day Wear

4 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (5 button) - Day Wear

5 - Black Argyle, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

6 - Prince Charlie, no waistcoat - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

7 - Prince Charlie, with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

8 - Regulation Doublet - with a waistcoat (3 button) - Tuxedo Equivalent - Black Tie

9 - Sheriffmuir, with high cut waistcoat (6 button+) - Black Tie or White Tie

10 Montrose, no waistcoat - White Tie

NOTE - There are 1/2 and 1/4 stages in between each number.
a - Brown and Green Tweed is seen as 'Country' or 'Rural', whereas Blue and Grey Tweed is seen as 'In Town' and 'Business'
b - Waistcoats that are matching the jacket are one step higher than waistcoats that are complimentary colours.
c - Waistcoats that are bias cut tartan rank higher than straight cut tartan and both are higher than those in b.
d - Leather buttons are better than plastic, as are real horn or antler.
e - Real silver buttons are higher up the chain than steel cut and the buttons in d.
f - Argyle style jackets come in a variety of colours

These are just the major variations. There are dozens more subtle variations that are often not seen, but known only to the wearer.

The point being that the PC is a tuxedo equivalent. You wear a PC and you, more or less, have to wear a bow tie. Because that is what you wear with a PC.

One last little point, but the biggest overall. Are you intending on being an equal partner in your marriage? If yes, then you should really decide what tie you will wear.

Regards

Chas

The first I see Prince Charlies is in Highland Dress catalogues from the 1930s where they are spoken of as a newfangled thing suited to young fashionable men. Here they are in 1936



They're usually shown with wing collar shirts and bowties, or with lace jabots.

A good listing from Chas; however, as is seen in the catalog posting from OC, the coatee, nee PC, as introduced is shown worn with a white lace jabot, thus white tie, as is the Kenmore. To accept that the coatee PC is a pure tuxedo equivalent discounts the origin of the garment.

The best that could be perhaps stated as a generalization is that the solid colour Arglye, and similar jackets, which are always acceptable with a long tie, could be worn with a bow tie for some evening events, although there are clear good examples of other exceptions.

As well, perhaps unfortunately, the tuxedo is sometime being worn with a long tie.

Lastly, a mention of velvet is needed; being a jacket in velvet is at least 1/4 or 1/2 stage regardless...

[Shedlock2000]

Lastly, a mention of velvet is needed; being a jacket in velvet is at least 1/4 or 1/2 stage regardless...

Could you elaborate slightly here? Are you referring to velvet jackets, and what is the 1/2 stage reference?

I have always considered myself pretty up on etiquette - but being new to the levels and intricacies of Highland dress, I am learning a whole new world!

Does anyone happen to recommend an online write up on formal Highland dress which covers all of the benches? I have recently noted the post that mentioned a long hair sporran - and I believe there are dress versions of sporrans too. My father made my sporran years ago, and so I don't own any others. But..... JUST in case I trot off to a morning-dress event, I wondered what I ought to be wearing to be fully correctly dressed.......