DNA can change everything

[Bluescelt]

I 'm another who found a DNA surprise after taking the Y-DNA test. FTDNA offered a Donnachaidh program and I decided to go with the 111 marker test. The test results come in 5 parts. At 12 marker it seems there are a lot of matches. At the higher number of marker there are a lot less. What I found was above 24 marker I was not matching any Duncans, Robertsons or Reids. I was matching MacGregors and Buchanans. Two possible reasons could be illegitimacy or name change. I do have records back to Scotland for 200 years so any name change would be 1700s or earlier. Did it surprise me, yes it did but I was not shocked and it made me wonder what could have happened. I did find an intriguing thing in this when I came across one of my Y-111 matches. Sir Malcolm MacGregor of MacGregor present Clan Chief of Clan MacGregor and I are a 101 of 111 marker match. We have a 95% chance of a common ancestor in 24 generations. I looked up the history of the MacGregors and found that after the Act of Proscription of 1603 many MacGregors changed there names and a group hid in the west end of Loch Rannoch. Even though the surname Duncan is not a recognized alias it does not rule out one MacGregor taking the name. Buchanan is a surname the MacGregors were known to assume. Is this a possible senerio? Maybe. It is pretty cool to know my ties to Scotland go way back and maybe "Royal is my race".

[Pleater]

Great Britain is - you might have noticed, sea girt - so have boat will travel - Vikings viked around, and sometimes got themselves into a whole lot of trouble and sometimes they went over to a farm to trade for chickens and one of them suddenly found himself feeling hot under the collar under the gaze of one of the lasses.

Then later there was the herring fishery - the fishermen travelled around the coast to find the fish and follow them around during the season, landing them at the most convenient port, where they had left the women who travelled with them to gut and pack the fish into barrels.

People were mobile - china clay was transported from Cornwall anti clockwise around the coast and up rivers and canals to the Potteries, for instance, but loads of things were moved around by water.

Then someone invented the safety bicycle which opened up a whole new set of possibilities, and women were included.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[Damion]

I think it has long been recognised that most of the far west and north clans are Norse rather than Celtic. The MacLeods are the sons of Ljot (the ugly one), the MacQueens are the sons of Sven, the MacKays, MacDonalds, Sutherlands, MacKenzies have similarly Norse names. The fact that many of these names are also found in Ireland is no surprise since the Vikings didn't stop at what is now Scotland. Then we have the Frasers, Grants and Bruces who were Anglo-Norman, the Chisholms who were Anglo-Saxon and so it goes on.
Alan

A note on those names, MacQueen could be from the Norse name Sveinn, it could also be from the Irish name Suibhne which means pleasant.
Whatever their origins, the MacDonalds are named for Domhnall mac Ragnaill. Ragnail is a Norse Name but Domhnall is Gaelic and means something like world ruler.
MacKay - Mac Aoidh where aoidh means fire, so likely firery one.
MacKenzies - Mac Coinneach where Coinnneach means comely/ fair.

The problem I have with a lot of these discoveries is that they either take markers from the female lineage and ignore the male or vice versa.
Perhaps I have this totally wrong, but it seems that you could have a male ancestor from England and you are descended from an unbroken line of male descent. You'd test as having this English marker. Yet every other ancestor could be Scottish but they'd be female and so you wouldn't have any male Scottish markers. Could you not then have the vast majority of your ancestry being Scottish yet you're counted as being English due to that one male ancestor?

Actually I think the English and Scots are closely related, I just used them as an example of what could be a problem with using such tests. Thoughts?

[Tarheel]

I just got a notice of a DNA report (different forum) from a relative by common surname only. He found in his own test a "Y Haplo Group H1a" that indicates his line includes Euro-Romanian Gypsy strands in his specific gene pool. He expanded to cite varied cultures travelling into new areas and co-mingling with the locals. That seems to be the common theme for all of us in our ancestry.

[neloon]

Clarification of an earlier comment -
"I think it has long been recognised that most of the far west and north clans are Norse rather than Celtic. "
It is possible to debate the origins of patronymics but the placenames in all these clan lands are so exclusively of Viking origin (however much they have been Gaelicised) that there can be no doubt as to the cultural identity of these clans.
Within Scotland, nobody pays any attention to DNA. If that were to be a defining characteristic then most current clan chiefs would turn out to be at least 95% English! I think most Scots go by accent; if a Patel or a Giulianotti or a Ng or a Mojsiewicz has a Scottish accent, they are Scots. End of.
Alan

[Jock Scot]

Alan is so right on this. Why does DNA change anything? None of us can change anything of that part of our make up, apart from, perhaps, some preconceived ideas that have been developed from assorted forms of hand-me-down history that is unlikely to be overly accurate by the time it reaches you anyway. I cannot for the life of me, see why some are so surprised at this.

[Catharps]

I have the name (SWAN is actually, from what I found, a very old highland name) but not the blood. From what I have found, they have absorbed into the Gunns and MacQueens. My grandfather Swan was adopted in the 1930's as a baby with no known background.

I did the 23andMe genealogy test a couple years ago and found out I am 89% Eastern European- Lithuanian. The rest is 'European', so I guess I can take it any way I want. I thinks its just funny how Pop-pop Swan married a Lithuanian when he had no idea that he himself was mostly of the same make himself.

I just ordered a set of Swan tartan made from Scotweb, I can't wait for it to arrive- its very lovely- and if any one asks, I will claim it as my own, if only in name!

[neloon]

I just ordered a set of Swan tartan made from Scotweb, I can't wait for it to arrive- its very lovely- and if any one asks, I will claim it as my own, if only in name!

That's absolutely fine in Scotland - just regard yourself as a MacSween/MacQueen and nobody will contradict you.
(In any case, Lithuania is just across the water from here so maybe your Lithuanian ancestors came from Scotland originally!)
http://www.scottishdiasporatapestry.org/lithuania

Alan

[OC Richard]

I think it has long been recognised that most of the far west and north clans are Norse rather than Celtic... The fact that many of these names are also found in Ireland is no surprise since the Vikings didn't stop at what is now Scotland.

Yes indeed.

At University I took a Physical Anthropology course and one thing the teacher talked about was hair colour. I don't know if it's true, but he said that there were no native people in Ireland or Scotland with red hair, such hair being the hallmark of Viking settlement (the Celts of Britain and Ireland having dark hair).

Hmmm... here's a map of red hair distribution.



The highest concentration being in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales it's tempting to say that that's the point of origin. But I wonder if it's like certain surnames being far more concentrated in the Americas than in Europe, because only a fraction of the different surnames in Britain were brought to British America and only a fraction of the different surnames in Spain were brought to Spanish America, there to multiply a thousandfold amongst the descendants.

(Interesting to note the high concentration in one area of Russia. Is it around Perm? Says here that the Udmurt people are the 'most red-headed in the world')

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

About DNA testing it's good to be aware that mitochrondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA (passed uncombined through the female and male lines respectively) can tell quite different stories, as witnessed by the story of the Melungeons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melungeon_DNA_Project

Melungeon mtDNA is purely European but the Y-chromosome DNA shows European, African, and Native American lineages. I would expect a similar thing with Irish and Highland Scots DNA, with the Y-chromosome DNA having a strong Scandinavian element and the mtDNA having a strong native element.

[neloon]

"We're aa Jock Tamson's bairns"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_Tamson's_Bairns
Alan