Re: Tartan Question

[Pat Stephens]

Through a twisting, complex, yet interesting story my mother's family is beginning to regain its genetic history. Specifically it has been kept in our oral history of being from Ireland, along with some discussion of Welsh, the DNA testing helped confirm the Irish heritage yet the genetic results also noted that Scotland was represented (along with English). While it took some time, I believe I have discerned the Irish and English. However I was a bit perplexed with the Scottish until I looked beyond my direct DNA results, along with my mother's grandfather side (surname Stephens), and thought of my mother's grandmother side which has the surname Sooter.

When I looked up the Sooter name the first historical placement I got was Scotland, namely from the Angus part of the Tayside region of the Scottish Highlands (please see: https://www.houseofnames.com/sooter-family-crest). I found this to be very interesting and exciting, especially in light of my Irish heritage, and while I directly found data linking the Sooter name to this history I often found the spelling of Sooter to be varied, such as Souter and Soutar. I am okay with these variants as I understand the lack of spelling consistency through time.

Nevertheless, when I discovered my possible Scottish ancestry I immediately thought of getting a tartan due to my owning kilts (to date: Saffron and tactikilts). When I tried to find a kilt linked to the family Sooter I only found one listing and that was for Souter/Soutar (please see: https://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/Sou...r-Souter/31678). While I may be intellectually aright with the answer to spelling variations, I was curious what you all may think of this? Would it still be acceptable to get the Souter/Soutar tartan even with my mother's grandmother side being named Sooter?

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts.

[ThistleDown]

Welcome to the forum, Pat.

Genealogical research is so rewarding. Sooter/souter/suter is simply Scots for shoemaker or cobbler and, of course, there have always been many of those all over the country. It's probably not a good idea to attach yourself to any family offered by the names-searching companies; arms belong to the individuals they are registered to, and not to all of the name. In the case of Sooter, you may find that an ancestor traveled from the Lowlands to Ireland in the plantation times.

The tartan that Scotweb refers to as Souter was actually designed in the 21C for a particular family. I hope our resident tartan expert Peter Macdonald (figheadair) checks into this thread to give you good advise and direction. If not, then find him in our 'Community' and send him a PM.

Enjoy your time with XMarks.

[jfraser]

Through a twisting, complex, yet interesting story my mother's family is beginning to regain its genetic history. Specifically it has been kept in our oral history of being from Ireland, along with some discussion of Welsh, the DNA testing helped confirm the Irish heritage yet the genetic results also noted that Scotland was represented (along with English). While it took some time, I believe I have discerned the Irish and English. However I was a bit perplexed with the Scottish until I looked beyond my direct DNA results, along with my mother's grandfather side (surname Stephens), and thought of my mother's grandmother side which has the surname Sooter.

When I looked up the Sooter name the first historical placement I got was Scotland, namely from the Angus part of the Tayside region of the Scottish Highlands (please see: https://www.houseofnames.com/sooter-family-crest). I found this to be very interesting and exciting, especially in light of my Irish heritage, and while I directly found data linking the Sooter name to this history I often found the spelling of Sooter to be varied, such as Souter and Soutar. I am okay with these variants as I understand the lack of spelling consistency through time.

Nevertheless, when I discovered my possible Scottish ancestry I immediately thought of getting a tartan due to my owning kilts (to date: Saffron and tactikilts). When I tried to find a kilt linked to the family Sooter I only found one listing and that was for Souter/Soutar (please see: https://www.scotweb.co.uk/tartan/Sou...r-Souter/31678). While I may be intellectually aright with the answer to spelling variations, I was curious what you all may think of this? Would it still be acceptable to get the Souter/Soutar tartan even with my mother's grandmother side being named Sooter?

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts.

Stephens is a common enough name in Morayshire, Banffshire and Aberdeenshire. In the old days quite a number of them were involved in the fishing industry. Could have a connection to MacTavish?

[Pat Stephens]

Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!

This journey to rediscover my roots has been a fascinating one and very rewarding. There is so much to say on the subject yet, interestingly, the more science-based DNA genealogical test, Geno 2.0, placed my mother's side possibly into Northern Ireland as far back as 19,000+-2,000 years ago, and my maternal haplogroup (H2a5b) has possible Norwegian DNA (I was verified to have Scandinavian DNA by Family Tree DNA which makes sense as Norway was known to viking into Ireland as early as 800 AD or so). As I also have English DNA, I am thinking that the Stephens clan came to Ireland and married into my family that was already there (explains my DNA mix of Irish and English).

Yet, as noted, the realization of where I got my Scottish DNA results came when I thought about my mother's grandmother side but the only site to show more formally where this side may have originated was from something like a name searching company, which I agree is a little uncomfortable but I have nothing else to go off of. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated! Along that line, I would not have known to connect Sooter towards MacTavish. This is very interesting, yet I have no idea how to make a connection such as this, thus how does one do so?

I will be sure to send Mr. Macdonald (figheadair) a PM.

THANK YOU, everyone! I hope this is not silly or rude to say, yet I do feel very honored to be Irish, Scottish, and English. Plus, if Welsh is right for the English DNA then I guess I can get that Celtic tattoo to show my heritage (Irish, Scottish, and Welsh).

[jfraser]

[QUOTE=Pat Stephens;1322654]Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!

Along that line, I would not have known to connect Sooter towards MacTavish. This is very interesting, yet I have no idea how to make a connection such as this, thus how does one do so?

Sorry, something got lost in translation as they say. If you are referring to my reply I was suggesting that Stephens might have a connection to MacTavish. If you search Clan MacTavish you can see that Stephens could be a Sept of that clan. Of course, Sept is not without its problems in proving such.

[Pat Stephens]

[QUOTE=jfraser;1322688]

Thank you all for your thoughts as it is most appreciated!
Sorry, something got lost in translation as they say. If you are referring to my reply I was suggesting that Stephens might have a connection to MacTavish. If you search Clan MacTavish you can see that Stephens could be a Sept of that clan. Of course, Sept is not without its problems in proving such.

No worries at all and I am sorry that I was thinking more of my Sooter side rather than Stephens in this case. However, I took a look at the MacTavish clans as I am not familiar with septs and it is neat to both find the Stephens name there but also a direct connection of the clan MacTavish to Ireland (http://clanmactavish.org/family-names-septs). Yet, as you note I would not know any way to verify a connection as a sept.

Yet, overall, I also still would not have any idea as how to narrow down the correct tartan for my family (Sooter or Stephens).

Ta!

[Father Bill]

Respectfully, don't get too hung up on it with DNA and all kinds of genealogical research. It's fun, but it can also be dangerous; you might find out something that's upsetting or disappointing for a number of reasons. In fact, I've been told that with current DNA testing an interesting statistic has emerged that throughout history in any given generation and any given year, somewhere close to 7% of folks didn't have the father that they thought they did. Mama... well generally that was known, but even in my own family and also that of my wife, one known case of a Mama in each wasn't whom people thought she was. Think of all of the people throughout history who have worn the bend sinister and you'll perhaps understand.

My own Scottish search is perhaps a case in point. My mother had always said her family were Saxons. If you had met my Mum you would have agreed - you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, peaches and cream, the whole works. Her surname however, actually turned out to be Norman ao I did some really simple research and when I traced it, indeed they had been in the county she claimed as her heritage in England for a century or so, but before that, nothing!

So I traced it further out of curiosity, and lo and behold, about half of the people of that surname had left the only other place in what is Great Britain where they had been previously found, about five years before they showed up where Mum said they were. It turned out that they had come from the traditional and historical territory of Clan Sinclair, and while they are not listed as an "official sept" (a concept that is really quite recent historically speaking) it must be remembered that the clan system was designed largely to recruit warriors and if you married in, you were in!

To suggest that in four centuries that the surname had been found in Caithness and the Orkneys, none of the male line from which I was apparently descended had ever married a local girl would be far beyond ludicrous. That being the case, the assumption that I was inevitably a clansman was only exceeded by the statement of our clan Chief Malcolm, who has written that if you share the goals and aims of the clan, of course you are a member.

It's enough for me and it's important to realize that this is my own perspective and I'm comfortable with it, but as my expert geneologist and historian friend said, "Bill, they didn't keep records of peasants and sadly, you qualify, but if you think with that history you're not a Sinclair, you're in la-la land," so I've thrown my lot in with the clan, consider myself a member, wear the tartan, and have been welcomed by all as a long-lost cousin... of indeterminate but never disputed lineage.

So relax. It's not as big a thing as some folks (and admittedly some clans and some clan chiefs) like to make it. In this day and age, anyone who honestly thinks they are utterly unrelated to any other given person is well deluded and self-deluded at that.

Enjoy and live a happy life with your own chosen delusions as I do.

[Pat Stephens]

Respectfully, don't get too hung up on it with DNA and all kinds of genealogical research. It's fun, but it can also be dangerous; you might find out something that's upsetting or disappointing for a number of reasons. In fact, I've been told that with current DNA testing an interesting statistic has emerged that throughout history in any given generation and any given year, somewhere close to 7% of folks didn't have the father that they thought they did. Mama... well generally that was known, but even in my own family and also that of my wife, one known case of a Mama in each wasn't whom people thought she was. Think of all of the people throughout history who have worn the bend sinister and you'll perhaps understand.

My own Scottish search is perhaps a case in point. My mother had always said her family were Saxons. If you had met my Mum you would have agreed - you know, blonde hair, blue eyes, peaches and cream, the whole works. Her surname however, actually turned out to be Norman ao I did some really simple research and when I traced it, indeed they had been in the county she claimed as her heritage in England for a century or so, but before that, nothing!

So I traced it further out of curiosity, and lo and behold, about half of the people of that surname had left the only other place in what is Great Britain where they had been previously found, about five years before they showed up where Mum said they were. It turned out that they had come from the traditional and historical territory of Clan Sinclair, and while they are not listed as an "official sept" (a concept that is really quite recent historically speaking) it must be remembered that the clan system was designed largely to recruit warriors and if you married in, you were in!

To suggest that in four centuries that the surname had been found in Caithness and the Orkneys, none of the male line from which I was apparently descended had ever married a local girl would be far beyond ludicrous. That being the case, the assumption that I was inevitably a clansman was only exceeded by the statement of our clan Chief Malcolm, who has written that if you share the goals and aims of the clan, of course you are a member.

It's enough for me and it's important to realize that this is my own perspective and I'm comfortable with it, but as my expert geneologist and historian friend said, "Bill, they didn't keep records of peasants and sadly, you qualify, but if you think with that history you're not a Sinclair, you're in la-la land," so I've thrown my lot in with the clan, consider myself a member, wear the tartan, and have been welcomed by all as a long-lost cousin... of indeterminate but never disputed lineage.

So relax. It's not as big a thing as some folks (and admittedly some clans and some clan chiefs) like to make it. In this day and age, anyone who honestly thinks they are utterly unrelated to any other given person is well deluded and self-deluded at that.

Enjoy and live a happy life with your own chosen delusions as I do.

Hello Father,

I think my students, like I, would love the discussion. In particular, your last note of the similarity of all humans is spot on for, depending on the source, we are all approximately 99.5% similar in our DNA. This, naturally, hints at the power of DNA where, as I remind my pupils, is amazing but not magical. As a scientist, I tend to default to the science, genealogical or biological (while always staying critical of the data). This would be true with the genealogical as I enjoy reading the genetic data that comes with the DNA testing. Yet I agree with the limitations and the need for both caution and making sure that any hypothesis set forth must meet all the data, as any good null hypothesis (Ho) would. This is actually why I elected to not use ancestry.com (accuracy concerns) nor 23andme.com (privacy concerns) for my genetic testing. Also, it is my understanding that the Geno 2.0 is the more science based testing and that Family Tree DNA is accepted by legal genealogists.

I did, though, have my family's oral history and past genealogical work to draw off of and, as you note, the DNA testing was not 100% in-line with what my family had thought, as least as it related to myself, which I do feel was a let down. Specifically, my family had stated that we also had Native American in our lineage, but this did not show in either the NatGeo Geno 2.0 nor the Family Tree DNA. I did indeed find this to be a disappointment as I have always respected the Native American cultures and was honored to have been told I was part of them. Yet as a scientist I have to accept the data for what it is and Native American simply does not show in me (that does not mean it is not in my family's genetic history but simply not in high enough concentration to show in my results).

Points of agreement in the oral history and DNA:

- My family stated that we were Irish and both the separate Geno 2.0 and Family Tree DNA tests appears to have agreed with this. The Geno 2.0 did also note possible Danish, yet my haplogroup is listed more towards Norway (which agree with known human history (vikings) and Family Tree DNA results). I am comfortable with these results as I have no reason not to agree with the science.

- I think my mother's family has always focused, as I did, on my grandfather's side as even the earliest genealogy book they had followed it. I am not sure why my mother's grandmother side was not discussed as it is just as relevant. This was the reason I brought here my initial question as I was asked what the tartan would be and I did (do not) know. I do find it interesting that the more recent Family Tree DNA listed Scotland as possible for part of my DNA make-up which also agrees with the grandmother's surname. Yet my oral history notes Welsh and does not mention Scottish, but England is also part of my possible DNA. This notes to the genetic tests possibly not being in full agreement with the oral history but here, again, I would default to the science due to my professional training (thus my being Irish, Scottish, and English).

I do find all of this academically very interesting, but there is a practical side as my family, apparently, has to some degree tasked me with helping to uncover the history as the genealogy is important to them. In fact, my family is even holding its annual family get together soon which will include an update on the genealogy (not from me as I am nowhere near ready). There is, as it usually is with people, a lot going on behind the scenes.

I honestly did not mean for the discussion in this thread to become one of genealogy as I only initially brought it up for context which I thought might help with the tartan question I asked. I do, though, find the discussion interesting and actually use the science both to educate myself and my students (genetics is always discussed in college biology classes). I would add that science is fallible, and if the procedures and/or results change in the future I must also be okay with that as this is how science works. In the end, I defer to the science and the data it shows but I do love when it actually agrees with family oral history.

Thank you, Father. I look forward to chatting with you in the future on many subjects!

[figheadair]

I picked this up via the PM but will chime in here for the benefit of all.

Both Rex and Father Bill have offered sound advice and comment on the origin of the name and the fact that it, like other trade names such as Smith, Wright and Clark etc., is widespread in Scotland. Notwithstanding that some clans claim such names as septs or dependants, realistically there cannot be one size fits all and to be such one would need to trace ones family back to a Highland area in the 18th century or earlier. If you cannot do this then it’s simply down to making a choice of whether to opt for a clan and its tartan, thereby technically pledging allegiance to that clan, or opting for a non-clan tartan.

If it were me I’d opt for a non-clan tartan, probably a district one such as Angus but given with widespread distribution of the name you could choose and justify (not actually a requirement but some people feel the need to) any district sett.

Alternatively you might wish to consider this Stephenson (son or descendent of Stephen) tartan which was designed for all of the name irrespective of the spelling of their name.

[Pegasys]

My paternal Ferguson surname paper trail hit the brick wall of the british burning much of upper new england during the revolutionary war where my 2nd great grandfathers history started and his parents and their lives disappeared . I was able to paper trail all ancestors to their country of origin EXCEPT the most important to me , IE my fathers fathers fathers father ad nauseum My grandfather wore the kilt and was decidedly self professed scot , my mother who was decidedly irish/german scolded him every time he wore his kilt so I HAD to find out the answer . I turned to genetics to solve the question that that drove me to discover where ultimately I came from . Long story short I came to be placed squarely in the relatively new M222 (2006) subclade . I did some further downstream snp testing and ended up as M222 / S659 / Y2843 . You and I COULD be forgiven if we thought that this settled the question of Scot vs Irish with the certainty of science . The downstream S659 snp confirmed to me or rather my want it to be Scot origin . According to the Milligan/Milliken DNA Project http://regarde-bien.com/scottish-m222.html my conclusion is a tad less than rock solid So untill a descendant of a theoretical sibling of my 2nd great grandfather decides to do as I did I may never know for sure . What I do know for sure is that by nature AND nurture , temperament and personal proclivities I fit into The Clan Fergusson and have been embraced by them even if I do find out someday that there was an irishmen under the lein croich that resulted in moi . After all everyone who's in the know knows that the MacFhearghaus decendants are the true heirs of the first king of Scotland and Ireland , and we accept those who stayed on the south side of the Celtic Sea as family even if they got lost and couldn't find thier way back home !!!