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20th August 18, 11:01 PM
#11
 Originally Posted by Steve Ashton
In very general terms - When a Tartan is designed, it is the pattern that is designed. So many yarns of blue followed by so many yarns of green. We use the letters B and G. We do not normally specify what color of blue or green.
Steve, you raise a point that is widely misunderstood. How often have I been told by someone that "they have three tartans; the dark one, the ancient one and a nice muted one"? In explaining the fact that they are the same tartan it's helpful to use the terms shade, tone or hue rather than colour to explain the apparent difference. Colour is the generic term: red, blue green etc., which is then qualified by: light, dark etc.
The weavers can change the colors again to simulate what the design may look like after being out in the sun and faded for 40 years. This is the "weathered" color version.
The generic colours never fade to this range. My understanding is that 'Weathered Colours' came about some time after Dalgliesh 'invented' their Reproduction Range. The term was copyright and so other manufacturers, Lochcarron may have been the first, chose a different name for series of similar (sort of) colours.
Unlike all the other colour ranges, Weathered colours actually change some of the colours, particularly the green which becomes a mid-brown. The departure from the original is so marked that it has been argued that the result is actually a different tartan.
Last edited by figheadair; 21st August 18 at 12:10 AM.
Reason: Update
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21st August 18, 05:24 AM
#12
 Originally Posted by figheadair
The generic colours never fade to this range. My understanding is that 'Weathered Colours' came about some time after Dalgliesh 'invented' their Reproduction Range. The term was copyright and so other manufacturers, Lochcarron may have been the first, chose a different name for series of similar (sort of) colours.
Unlike all the other colour ranges, Weathered colours actually change some of the colours, particularly the green which becomes a mid-brown. The departure from the original is so marked that it has been argued that the result is actually a different tartan.
I suppose this will remain a point of contention amongst tartan enthusiasts for quite some time. Since no one (to my knowledge) has absolute authority to rigidly define what tartan is, or to declare when hues stray too far from the original to become a different sett, the door will remain open to interpretation by weavers and consumers. Obviously, the clan chiefs may choose to accept or deny particular palettes for their own clan tartan, but I'm speaking in general terms for tartan as a whole.
Weavers know that they are walking a proverbial tightrope with this concept. If they stray too far from the original hues, the tartan becomes unrecognisable and people will not want it. So they have to keep the colour choices believable, while attempting to find pairings of dyes that are pleasing to the eye. When it comes to Reproduction, Weathered, and other such palettes, I personally think they've gone about as far as they can go from the original hues. I did notice that DC Dalgliesh waded into it cautiously, not wanting to do long expensive runs of these tartans until they were sure they would sell. Right about the time I bought my length of Reproduction Colquhoun in 2011, it went from a custom weave to a standard weave, and suddenly the price dropped dramatically and it was available in double-width instead of just single-width.
You obviously have studied older wool tartans, and I believe you when you say that the dyes originally used would never fade to some of these colours (like green fading to brown). But I will say that I have personally observed it happening with other materials like cotton flannel shirts, blankets, etc. I have some plaid flannel shirts that display a lot of this type of fading on the exposed portions, where the tails that are tucked in have remained their original colour; this is the result of my wearing them for many years in the Texas sun. I've seen similar fading on a flannel blanket that was draped over the back of a chair next to a window for years. The portion exposed to direct sunlight displayed not just a bleaching or wash-out effect, but the dyes obviously broke down so that blacks turned to light browns, greens turned yellowish-brown, etc. This obviously depends on the material, the dyes used, the dye-setting process, the type of exposure (sun, dirt), and age.
So it's probably fair to conclude that the weavers have created a bit of fantasy with these types of palettes for wool tartan that would not be consistent with historical cloth, but the concept is not too far off the mark when it comes to creating an antiqued look that people would recognise from other fabrics. I think the believability is still there, at least for the average consumer (if not the tartan historians). Whether the popular appeal of these palettes stand the test of time remains to be seen.
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21st August 18, 07:00 AM
#13
 Originally Posted by CollinMacD
Why is there a weathered and/or muted tartans of a dress tartan? What is the purpose for this? Is it just used to increase sales or is there a historical significance to weathered or muted coloring?
A. Some people like the look of it.
B. Some people want a kilt, etc. in the muted version of a dress tartan.
C. Yes, it's an additional driver for tartan sales. No, there is no historical significance, although there's plenty of sources that will tell you otherwise. They are wrong.
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21st August 18, 07:36 AM
#14
I guess all the more for me to purchase one, simply because I do like the look. Thanks
Allan Collin MacDonald III
Grandfather - Clan Donald, MacDonald (Clanranald) /MacBride, Antigonish, NS, 1791
Grandmother - Clan Chisholm of Strathglass, West River, Antigonish, 1803
Scottish Roots: Knoidart, Inverness, Scotland, then to Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada.
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24th August 18, 11:38 AM
#15
 Originally Posted by Father Bill
I guess that's the point. Most of the clan chiefs are silent on the variations - not condemnatory, just silent.
Some even wear them without making any official statements in favour of them.
Just interesting.
Hope I've got it right though! 
I think you have it right. As usual. I think your above comment on silent, not condemnatory, is also very relevant. Folk can and do
wear what they wish, including chiefs and their families. It is only when it becomes a question of which tartan represents the clan
that most will make a specific statement about other tartans or variations. There are probably many positions cited over the years,
though the most definite which comes to mind at the moment is this: https://www.ccsna.org/clan-campbell-tartans
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25th August 18, 07:45 AM
#16
 Originally Posted by bodhran4me
I guess sometimes even the chief will bow to the will of his lady. ?!?
If he's smart, he will.
"My beloved America, thank you for your children. If your children want to become soldiers I will train them. When they are hungry I will feed them. When they are thirsty I will give them water. When they fight for freedom I will lead them. When they are unsteady on the battlefield I will motivate them. If they die on the battlefield I will bury them. So help me God."
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25th August 18, 08:16 PM
#17
I think it's just changing tastes and marketing.
I have a collection of vintage Highland Dress catalogues and statements like this are seen in some of the earlier ones:
"The dyes used by the Highlanders in colouring their tartans were produced from lichen roots and Highland plants, the colours so produced being mellower and more lasting than the somewhat harsh tints of 19th-century aniline dyes...it has now become possible to reproduce with a certain new process the old light and delicate shades yielded by the vegetable dyes which often disclose unsuspected beauties in the design of tartans which have appeared commonplace when manufactured with ordinary aniline dyes...
Indeed this type of tartan has deservedly become exceedingly popular…." (1936)
So in the 1930s the so-called "ancient" colourway was becoming "exceedingly popular" though I don't think it had all that much to do with actually recreating the original appearance of 18th century tartan.
Then in the 1940s Dalgleish came out with their "reproduction" colourway which supposedly recreated the look of tartan buried for 200 years in a peat bog or something. Once again I think it was about marketing more tartan rather than historical accuracy. Lochcarron named their version "weathered" colours.
House Of Edgar has their "muted" colourway which is quite lovely and transforms yet again the appearance of familiar tartans.
Perhaps the most recent iteration of this process has been the sudden (and to me inexplicable) popularity of grey-scale tartans. Seemed for a while all the kilt hire shops had "grey this" and "grey that". Tartan has always been about celebrating colour- why suck all the colour out of it?
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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25th August 18, 11:10 PM
#18
 Originally Posted by OC Richard
I have a collection of vintage Highland Dress catalogues and statements like this are seen in some of the earlier ones:
"The dyes used by the Highlanders in colouring their tartans were produced from lichen roots and Highland plants, the colours so produced being mellower and more lasting than the somewhat harsh tints of 19th-century aniline dyes...it has now become possible to reproduce with a certain new process the old light and delicate shades yielded by the vegetable dyes which often disclose unsuspected beauties in the design of tartans which have appeared commonplace when manufactured with ordinary aniline dyes...
Indeed this type of tartan has deservedly become exceedingly popular…." (1936)
So in the 1930s the so-called "ancient" colourway was becoming "exceedingly popular" though I don't think it had all that much to do with actually recreating the original appearance of 18th century tartan.
Then in the 1940s Dalgleish came out with their "reproduction" colourway which supposedly recreated the look of tartan buried for 200 years in a peat bog or something. Once again I think it was about marketing more tartan rather than historical accuracy. Lochcarron named their version "weathered" colours.
Richard, very interesting references that push back my understanding of date of the introduction of both colourways. Whose catelogue does the Ancient Colours reference come from? And do you have a 1940s Dalgliesh catelogue referencing Reproduction Colours?
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26th August 18, 05:15 AM
#19
 Originally Posted by figheadair
Richard, very interesting references that push back my understanding of date of the introduction of both colourways. Whose catalogue does the Ancient Colours reference come from? And do you have a 1940s Dalgliesh catelogue referencing Reproduction Colours?
Some of those catalogues have no dates. Happily four that pertain to this are either expressly dated or have dates that can be inferred.
One catalogue, Rowans LTD (Glasgow) expressly states that the catalogue was printed in 1938, and it has this page:

A Paisleys (Glasgow) catalogue dated 1939 refers to this colourway as "old colours" in the caption of an illustration of Gentlemen's Highland Dress, and in the appendix in conjunction with boy's kilts mentions "old colours (vegetable dyes)".
A Paisleys catalogue dated 1936 does not mention "old colours" in those places, only in the listing
Tartan per yard:
All Wool Cashmere Tartan 54" wide
Heavy Saxony Tartan 36" wide
Old Colour Tartan 30" wide
The lengthy quote in my previous post was from the Andersons 1936 catalogue, the date being inferred from the following which appears on the title page:
By Appointment To His Late Majesty King George V.
About the Dalgleish "reproduction" tartans, I thought I had read that they had introduced that range in 1949 due to a tartan fragment being unearthed at Culloden Moor in 1946. I can't find anything about it on the internet right now. Am I misremembering?
A clue might come from finding out when Lochcarron introduced their "weathered" range.
Last edited by OC Richard; 26th August 18 at 05:52 AM.
Proud Mountaineer from the Highlands of West Virginia; son of the Revolution and Civil War; first Europeans on the Guyandotte
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26th August 18, 06:02 AM
#20
My memory of the introduction of the "reproduction tartans" would tie in with 1949 and the 1946 Culloden finding was certainly put about as the justification.
Alan
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