Fraser and Kirkbright: experiences with their tartan

**highlander_Daz** · 9th May 05, 08:50 AM

Recently a European "eurocrat" attempted to class the kilt as a "skirt" the Kilt had to be listed as womens apparel

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0...082420,00.html

**Thistle Stop** · 9th May 05, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by highlander_Daz

Recently a European "eurocrat" attempted to class the kilt as a "skirt" the Kilt had to be listed as womens apparel

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0...082420,00.html

In the notes to the chapter on apparel in the US Customs Harmonized Tariff Schedule, it says that all garments that close left-over-right shall be classified as men's garments, and those closing right-over-left as women's garments. So that would make a kilt a man's garment. But, there is no class description that includes the kilt, or any kind of non-bifurcated lower-body garment, as men's clothing. The notes go on to say that if the gender of a garment cannot be determined, or if it doesn't clearly fit in any of the classes, then it will be considered to be a woman's garment. So there's really no alternative but to call it a skirt, or try to classify it in the section covering men's trousers, shorts, etc., as 'other'. Customs frowns on use of the 'other' category, however. They also agree with me (on the phone, not in writing, mind you!) that it is not a woman's garment and should not be classified as such. Regarding Customs classification, the kilt, in strictest terms, is a little like Tom Hanks's character in The Terminal -- stuck in limbo, with no place to call its own!

Perhaps there's an army of empty kilts languishing in a Customs warehouse somewhere -- let us call it the 'Frontier of Frustrated Fashion' -- unable to pass through the barrier to assume their rightful places girding the loins of Scots-American men! (j/k)

**bubba** · 9th May 05, 10:30 AM

[quote="highlander_Daz"]Recently a European "eurocrat" attempted to class the kilt as a "skirt" the Kilt had to be listed as womens apparel

I read about that awhile back. The Eurocrat that decided that was a Spanish bureacrat. I understand the Scots forced the EU to back down on that real fast.

**Alan H** · 6th June 05, 11:02 AM

Just pushing this up to the top for reference.

**beerbecue** · 10th June 05, 12:07 PM

I received my latest F&K yardage today, the 16 oz. Ancient Hunting McDonald of the Isles remnant...

It is a little lighter than the Lochcarron 16 oz. that I have, but the texture is nice and crisp..... it lays very well...

The kilting selvedge is not quite as nice as the Lochcarron, but it is nicer than the mixed fiber yardages I have worked with in the past...

Here is a photo:

Sorry for the large size, but I wanted it to show up....

I don't think it is at all bad.... I won't hem this one like the others...

I hope this helps......

**Alan H** · 14th June 05, 10:06 AM

Excellent. Thank you very much, especially for the photograph of the selvedge. this is a HUGE help.

I got the N. Bately swatches back from "making the rounds" as it were, and just need to hear back from one more X Marker before I go to Highlandtide with my recommendation. To my somewhat untrained eye, the N. Bately selvedge on their Poly Viscose is absolutely horrible. The selvedge on their intermediate weight wool is not very good, and the selvedge on their heavier weight wool is fine, though it's not like the material magically just ends likeit does on the some of the nicer materials.

Thank you VERY much for this photograph.

**beerbecue** · 14th June 05, 10:57 AM

I am really quite happy with this material overall, and I think when it is finally 'kilted', the selvedge will be just fine.

Actually, the texture and weave of this material should be easy to work with. It is very tight, and very 'clean'.

The Lochcarron I have seems to be more 'loose', sort of like it would be more prone to making fuzz than this F&K stuff.

They are very different, that is for sure, but I am really happy with this yardage. Even my wife likes it...

**Thistle Stop** · 14th June 05, 11:33 AM

I can't see the picture of the F&K selvedge in this thread. Did it get deleted somehow? Is there another way we can see it?

The one thing I don't like about F&K wool is that they use Merino wool. As I said in my 'wool report' to Alan H.,

Even on worsted wool (which is very tightly twisted and thus less fuzzy than other kinds of yarn), you can see a difference between long-staple and short-staple wools [in a sample of warp pulled from the swatch]. Merino, which comes from Australia, has a shorter staple (length of individual fibres in the wool) than Scottish wool, so in the twisted yarn you can see a more pronounced fuzziness. It makes it less crisp-looking, especially after a lot of wear, and less long-wearing. And it can be itchier for a person with sensitive skin, though Merino wool is a soft kind of wool, relatively speaking.

I realise I'm a rampant purist. One of the other people reviewing the swatches thought the N. Batley wool (from England) looked like Merino wool, too, but it didn't look that way to me when I looked at the yarn from the swatch. I suppose we should ask them, if it makes any difference to anyone else. By the way, for anyone not familiar with the terms, 'worsted' refers to the way the yarn is made and does not indicate the variety of wool used to make it. It's very important to use worsted wool in making a traditional, woollen kilt, for a myriad of reasons.

The quality of the selvedge is, in the final analysis, more important than the type of wool fibre in the material (as long as it's 100% worsted wool, that is!). So I think it comes down to which weaving mill makes a better selvedge, or, if they seem equal in that respect, the price, followed by the wool variety.

**Mike1** · 14th June 05, 11:55 AM

Beerbecue, can you re-post the image of the selvedge? Apparently it got dumped after Alan H saw it.

**beerbecue** · 14th June 05, 12:14 PM

Weird, I see it just fine........ you really don't see a big picture of the tartan??

Anywho, the only flaw, well, the flaw, in the F&K selvedge is in the red stripe in the AH McD of Isles sett. The last red, horizontal stripe is thinner than in the sett above it. Other than that......

The selvedge of the Lochcarron is perfect, you can't even tell it is the edge, except of course that it is the edge.

Perhaps the difference in the wool explains the 'thickness' difference I see in the two pieces of 16 oz. I have from the two manufacturers.... The F&K is 'flatter' and the Lochcarron is 'pillowier' - I am not sure how else to describe it.....

Since this is only the SECOND piece of 100% wool I have worked with, I can only give impressions based on my experience, and I would not presume to come off as an expert, by ANY stretch.

If a PERFECT selvedge is what is really needed, then the F&K most likely will not do. It isn't shiny, or have major distortions in the sett like other selvedges I have seen, but it does have a minor flaw in the sett. This won't bother me when I use it to experiment on a new kilt design, or on an 8-yarder I make for myself (cuz its inexpensive), but it may come into play on a large investment......