So it's not a skirt (or maybe it is). And the point is...?

[cloves]

even in the last few months become more open minded???
I don't know what it is lately, but I find the posting (when it comes to these 'heavier' subjects anyway) to be more more apprecitative and respectful of each other's views and opinions. I for one really like the new direction the board seems to be moving in. hrmmm...maybe I'm becoming less defensive?

Anyway, getting back to what Rex was saying in the first place...
For those of you who don't know, I'm female, and by times even I take offense when somebody says to me "nice skirt" with a sarcastic tone. I can tell when it's an insult as opposed to a compliment.
The thing is, maybe I dislike it when somebody calls it a skirt because it does feminize me, and i've never been a girly girl. It's not being a girl that bothers me so much ( I am!) it's the fact that I don't want to be percieved as something not powerful. I think internally we must asscoiate female with weak perhaps. That's something I've got to work on. Letting go of preconcieved notions about gender and what it means to me male or female.

I'm starting to give myself a headache...been thinking too much. argh

[Blu (Ontario)]

... I guess the point is everyone here understands that a kilt is a man's garment...

If this was true, there wouldn't be a need to "trick-up" the kilt with sporrans, daggers, and other traditional kit to "declare" that it's masculine. There remains much insecurity even amongst commited kilt weareres.

... Not everyone not here has the same understanding. Some do, but they are not comfortable with the notion.

It is a mental challenge that some people don't seem to cope with easily. I suspect that the ones that squawk the loudest are usually the most insecure.:rolleyes:

[bubba]

Next time some sarcastic type says nice skirt ask if he puts fender pants on his car.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

...even in the last few months become more open minded???
I don't know what it is lately, but I find the posting (when it comes to these 'heavier' subjects anyway) to be more more apprecitative and respectful of each other's views and opinions. I for one really like the new direction the board seems to be moving in. hrmmm...maybe I'm becoming less defensive?...

Cloves, I think that I would have to agree. There have been some topics recently that I was sure would be shut down almost immediately, but remained civil and on-topic. Even the recent "No Sgian Dubh's" thread lasted far longer than I would have expected, because even though it skirted (actually directly involved) politics from the beginning, everyone was open, civil, and willing to hear others opinions.

[Chris Webb]

Hum. I may be asking for trouble by admitting this here but I wear a kilt because it IS a skirt. I don't 'trick out' my kilts, I just wear a kilt. Right now I have on a very light weight polyester kilt in a red/black/white plaid (not tartan), a black muscle shirt tucked in and black sandals. I also had a black fanny pack slung over my shoulder and across my chest. Certainly I'm dressed at the very edge of the skirt/kilt debate.

I was at Walmart earlier this evening and I think we can all agree that the customers and staff at damned near any Walmart is a good representation of society's most down to earth people. Here is what I experienced:

1. A few odd looks and many smiles.

2. Two older gentlement gave me a 'thumbs up' and one other middle aged guy gave me a 'thumbs up' and a "You look good!"

3. Two teenage girls followed my through the parking lot, one row over and finally drove up when I got to my car ... they were thoroughly impressed, had never seen a man in a, as they said, a, well, what do you call it? They asked if they could take my picture so I stood in my best 'Braveheart' pose and they loved it.

Nobody gave me any trouble of any kind.

Was I wearing a kilt or a skirt? The simple truth is that the only reason my skirt could really be called a kilt is because I, a man, was wearing it. ANY woman could put on this same exact outfit and it would certainly be called a skirt. If a skirt is on a man then it is a kilt. If a kilt is on a woman then it is a skirt or, at best, a kilted skirt.

Do people sometimes say, "Nice Skirt", they sure do. They also often ask if anybody ever gives me any trouble for wearing 'it.' I always reply the same way ....

"Would YOU?"

Kilt On.

Chris Webb

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Hum. I may be asking for trouble by admitting this here but I wear a kilt because it IS a skirt. ...

Was I wearing a kilt or a skirt? The simple truth is that the only reason my skirt could really be called a kilt is because I, a man, was wearing it. ANY woman could put on this same exact outfit and it would certainly be called a skirt. If a skirt is on a man then it is a kilt. If a kilt is on a woman then it is a skirt or, at best, a kilted skirt...

Hey Chris, how about some pics to go with your post? If you wear a kilt because it is a skirt, then your motivation might be different than some on the board, but that is not the reason I ask. You seem to imply that your kilt would be called a skirt if worn by a woman, so I am curious to see if it has the traditional kilt characteristics, like an over and under apron in the front, wrapped left over right, with pleats in the back running counter clockwise when viewing the kilt from the top, or is pleated all the way around like a woman's skirt.

[Scott Gilmore]

Good thread. Very good thread.

I've only been posting here a short while, but this kind of atmosphere is what I've always liked about the Web, and found discouragingly hard to find most the time. Years ago this kind of sense of community wasn't so rare. Anyone here remember pre-Internet bulletin boards?

Anyway, I digress. Chris Webb's post is most revealing. Some are far more secure about our sexual identity than others. A tip of the caubeen to Chris.

Thank you,
Scott Gilmore

[James]

I have seen men's skirts in many parts of the world, Greece. The Maldives, the Pacific, and oddly enough Scotland-or do I mean the kilt.

Also having worn the Kilt since childhood, I think it is necessary to look at what we are doing and why?

In my case there are regular occasions where I can justify my kilt on the grounds of a particular Scottish connection to that occasion-when certainly I can say that the connection justifies my claim to be wearing the kilt.

However there are just as many, maybe more occasions when I wear my kilt for reasons of comfort, mood of the day and so on; and cannot justify it as being a kilt by reason of some Scottish connection: could it be that on such an occasion I'm in fact wearing a skirt?

Let me be quite clear, I have not the slightest interest in appearing as a woman or dressing as one. However as stated in my opening sentence I've seen male skirts in many parts of the world, true they have their own specific names: but they are still skirts. Just as women have different names for types of their skirt.

Too every man on this board wears skirts on occasion, that's right the skirts of a jacket/coat: too there are skirting boards in the home, and many of us live in the outskirts of a town. So skirt, is not an exclusive female word.

So I for one do not get too bothered about what my kilt might be called-though I would get annoyed at any suggestion of effeminacy upon my part.

At this point we must remember the fight of women to wear what they chose-be it skirt or trousers, a fight they won despite opposition, and of course comments. So today they have the right to wear what they choose, thanks to their collective courage in facing down that opposition.

At this point I would suggest that whatever we might claim, we are dressing in a certain way for comfort etc, and merely hiding behind an oft scant Scottish connection/reason. To put it bluntly we are choosing to wear a skirt, but as men: not as imitation women, or for sexual gratification.

I would therefore suggest to this board, that we should emulate the courage of our convictions, and face down any opposition to our wearing a skirt. In other words win the right to dress in the way we choose. For can we really claim that some of the variants mentioned on this board, be the The Utilikilt, denim or camouflage versions, really have a Scottish connection-I doubt it.

So rather than running scared, we should have enough confidence and courage to wear what we like, when we like.

James

[Hachiman]

Hi gang

Firstly, may I just thank Rex for the "future psychologist" label - I loved it, and it sounds good!

Secondly, I noticed a common element in some of the posts in this thread which asked why some people feel compelled to distinquish between a "kilt as a man's garment" and "skirts as a woman's garment". Now, bearing in mind that I have no empirical evidence with which to back this up, my initial thought comes from the writings of such authors as Connell, Pleck, and Levine, who conduct research on gender. In their writings, some authorities on masculinity claim that in today's Western Society, men are effectively compelled by social forces to demonstrate and validate their masculinity in almost everything they do. Thus, in order to differentiate a "friendly hug" between two men from a "intimate cuddle", you'll see an application and affectations of strength (i.e. back slapping, bear hugs, etc). Thus, one could argue that, due to the subtle influence of societal forces, we men are still "compelled" to prove that we are still men, and that this garment is a man's garment. Of course, this is a generalisation, and probably does not apply to every man - there are exceptions to almost every rule, after all.

Maybe it's another thesis for a later day! ;)

Thirdly, may I also compliment xmarkers on their sensible, open-minded and insightful comments on this board. I've been constantly impressed by the comments I read, and I'm proud to be a member of this community as a result.

OK - before I start sounding like some idiotic academic, I'll wrap up here!

Good thread, Rex!

cheers
Hachiman

[Master Boid]

HHmmm, I'm not quite sure what to add really as most things have already been said and anything I add may very well come out wrong. In my opinion it is true, as some have said that we are indeed wearing skirts but then again it is also true that the kilt has been a male garment and a sign of masculinity for centuries.

For the reason that I am a Scot I have never really associated the kilt with being anything other than masculine, skirt comments are common enough that people either do not understand or they are doing it deliberately. Both types of comments can be taken without any sort of retaliation because a kilt is, and never has been, a skirt unless named so.

In conclusion, you may call it anything you like as long as it is comfortable and you enjoy wearing it, utilikilts etc are more likely to be called skirts because people associate kilts with tartan and tartan kilts with Scotland. Only you're own fear of you're sexuality should stop you wearing a kilt and as long as you just remember why you're wearing it and be proud of it then it should be fine.

Last but not least, I applaud all Xmarkers for they're excellent posts, open minds and ability to wear a kilt in the face of criticism.

Yours in kilt

James