A Modern Scottish View of Clans (and Gathering)

[Phil]

Perhaps, by "silly flummery," you really mean symbols of something you perceive to be oppressive... I don't know, but there seems to be that undertone in your posts. If so, then I can understand your feelings about this in comparison to similar things in my own life.

That being said, I can also understand what you are saying about the feelings of fellowship and belonging; though not in an exact way. Hopefully, I'm not way off..

I think I share Burns' sentiments to a great degree such as this third verse from his poem "A man's a man" -

"Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that,
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a coof for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that,
The man o' independent mind,
He looks an' laughs at a' that."

and the last verse particularly

"Then let us pray that come it may,
As come it will for a' that,
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that."

I hope this explains where I am coming from much better than I can.

[Bugbear]

... xmarks "clan" ...

Just wondering, is it all right for the non-Scots to do that with our groups when we have a tartan? For example, a Marine saying his "clan" is the Marines, or his "clan" tartan is the Leatherneck.

[Bugbear]

I think I follow what you're getting at Phil.

[Phil]

I'm still rather fascinated with the state of land ownership in Scotland (is it the same in England?). I worked several stints on a sheep croft in Sutherland, and when the owner told me that she owned her house but not the land it sat on... I couldn't get my head around it! Apparently all the land that her village sat on belonged to some Lady Such-and-such (given to her as a birthday present). I imagine it's like having an absentee landlord, but if the landlord is also a slum lord you're really f'd. And it's even worse cause you OWN your house and caint just up and leave... I can certainly understand Phil's frustration and cynicism after having to deal with that in a day to day real life scenario. I've certainly had my share of slum landlords.

The "Lady Such-and-Such would be the Duchess of Sutherland who owns vast tracts there and whose forebears were responsible for some of the cruellest clearances in the Highlands. Even although people were able to buy land and build a house on it, they remained as feudal vassals to the feudal superior and had to pay an annual charge. Bettyhill in Sutherlansd was named after Elizabeth, Duchess of Sutherland and was one of the places displaced clansmen were relocated to from the glens to make way for sheep. As I said this mediaeval system persisted until the 1970's and if you wanted to make any changes to your house you had to go, cap in hand, to your "superior" for permission. Scotland has since progressed by abolishing this relic of feudalism (even though we had to pay off the superior) and we even have "right to roam" legislation where we can walk over any part of Scotland we wish. Communities can get together and buy their lands from these absentee landlords even if they don't want to sell and the iniquitous situation where wealthy individuals such as Lord Leverhulme could own whole islands such as Lewis and Harris and all the people on them is slowly being put right.

[dfmacliam]

How fitting that you live in Cleburne, Texas! Is that perchance named after the Confederate General Cleburne (who was Irish himself)?

That is exactly who the town is named after, the Texas troops from the area served under him.

[cessna152towser]

Originally Posted by cessna152towser
... xmarks "clan" ...

Just wondering, is it all right for the non-Scots to do that with our groups when we have a tartan? For example, a Marine saying his "clan" is the Marines, or his "clan" tartan is the Leatherneck.

Of course, yes.

[Bugbear]

Of course, yes.

Oh, ok. I wasn't sure.

[KFCarter]

I have no objection to people using what they see as a connection with a clan name as a means of establishing a closer relationship with Scotland, her history and customs. That is just great for both the individual and my country. I freely confess that I have chosen the tartan for two of my kilts (and for my avatar) from just such a supposed association and I am happy to wear those tartans. But I don't delude myself into thinking that I am preserving or paying homage to a valuable ancient social system when I do so.

I can agree with 99% percent of us, save the last sentence. I think the majority of people join clan societies to pay homage to their ancestors.

T.

I think there's an important distinction between homage to an "ancient social system" and homage to "their ancestors". There have been some reference in this thread to the irony of Americans romanticizing the trappings of an ancient feudal system. I think that misses the mark. Many Americans relate to clans as extended families, not as socio-political systems. In that context, respect for the patriarch (i.e. clan chief) is a natural step. As a member of a clan society, I have no problem tipping a metaphorical hat to the clan chief and the connection he represents to a shared (if very distant) family history. I am proud of that connection. But I'd never consider bending a knee to him. I reserve that for church (okay, sometimes, when necessary, the wife...). I don't feel I owe homage to a social system that ran off, kicked out and dispossessed my various ancestors. But I do owe, and gladly pay, homage to the people of my lineage, their native land and its customs.

In a country such as America where success is based principally on ability, reverence for inherited influence seems totally incomprehensible. I can only assume that there is a latent desire to look up to such people much in the way the late Princess Diana was revered as a fairy tale princess.

Perhaps Americans are comfortable putting so much stock in our ancestry because we are not captives of it. We are free, and have been so for a long time, to remake ourselves on a regular basis. The idea of America as a pure egalitarian meritocracy is as much a myth as any idealized picture of clan life, but it is true that we allow for the possibility that anyone can become anything if they have the energy, persistence and will to make it happen, and we celebrate those who succeed. While some of us may "revere" a Princess or a clan chief in a romantic way, I don't see us granting either any meaningful authority over our lives.

[JSFMACLJR]

The House of Lords is a bit like the US Senate, except that instead of a reconcilliation process, the bills go through the House of Commons (made up of the elected MPs, who are a bit like Representatives), then to the Lords, and then back to the Commons for a Second Reading, where the MPs can undo all the changes the Lords made if they want to, except for 'money bills' which I think don't go to the Lords. Some of the peers in the Lords are hereditary, and some appointed for life by governments as they leave office.

This may be splitting hairs, but in all truth, the US Senate is a bit like the House of Lords, and the US House of Representatives is a bit like the House of Commons. The Parliament of Westminster is the Mother of Parliaments

[Phil]

The idea of America as a pure egalitarian meritocracy is as much a myth as any idealized picture of clan life, but it is true that we allow for the possibility that anyone can become anything if they have the energy, persistence and will to make it happen, and we celebrate those who succeed. While some of us may "revere" a Princess or a clan chief in a romantic way, I don't see us granting either any meaningful authority over our lives.

Remember that while you may, possibly, become the President of your country through effort, persistence, possibly ability and no doubt shed-loads of cash, you cannot ever, in any circumstances, no matter how much you wish or try, become a clan chief because that depends solely upon an accident of birth. Something that none of us can overcome no matter how much we may wish or try for it. But what, precisely, does such an accident of birth confer upon an individual that makes him (I say him deliberately because primogeniture is another essential part of the deal here) such a suitable candidate for the job? Answers please on the back of a postage stamp - if you can actually think of any that is. I suppose that places you in a similar situation as me in that I cannot ever become the Head of State in my country for exactly the same reason. There are many obstacles placed in our path as we make our way through life but ones such as these that deny even the possibility are indefensible, unsupportable and should be swept away as your forefathers so sensibly decided all those years ago.