How important is the Declaration of Arbroath..

[ThistleDown]

Interesting...I have friends who are recent immigrants from NI to the US, and they way they talk, there still is a fairly large divide between the two communities in terms of intermarriage and interaction. Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, and I would daresay that your family is more typical today than when the large migrations from Ulster began in the early 1700s.

That is my understanding, as well. I lived in Ireland (Kilkenny, so not NI) for 5 years in the early 60s. That was prior to the deep next round of troubles up there, but we knew of the cultural separation between the native folk and those who were still considered as incomers centuries after they became residents.

In an earlier post, Todd, I did not mean to imply that the plantation folk thought of themselves as "Irish" as in natives, but that they had no connection or communication with their former homeland and, if they did think of themselves as Scots, they did not think of themselves as Highland Scots. The Gaelic was quickly lost, even among those who came in from the Southern Isles.

[ThistleDown]

Thistledown, the OP is most definitely not going to protest to the turns that this thread has taken. As was mentioned earlier, this is a very interesting exploration of the subject and the tangents are all pretty pertinent. I initially asked to hear from the Native Scots only because I was interested in knowing whether the DoA was important to them in a "living" way or if it was just history. Obviously, a lot of the diaspora feel inspired by it but I felt that they had a more indirect contact with it as opposed to those still living in the "Old Country".

Ladies and gents, by all means, play on! I'm learning a lot here.

Best

AA

Thank you, AA. Then I will repeat what I said earlier: the Arbroath has little relevance to the majority of Scots today, and even less to Highlanders who are pretty involved in the intricacies of daily life. Yes, there is a symbolic political importance for some Scots, but I don't think "inspired by it" accurately describes their feeling as it may do for those generations-removed from Scotland -- and perhaps even longer from the Highlands.

[macwilkin]

In an earlier post, Todd, I did not mean to imply that the plantation folk thought of themselves as "Irish" as in natives, but that they had no connection or communication with their former homeland and, if they did think of themselves as Scots, they did not think of themselves as Highland Scots. The Gaelic was quickly lost, even among those who came in from the Southern Isles.

Rex,

My apologies; I should have been a bit more clear in making that explanation for general purposes. In the US, there is a common myth that to be "Scots-Irish" is to be half-Scottish, half-Irish, and is still quite common, so that you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!

Of course, we're drifting towards "The Troubles" now, so I'll try to reign my thoughts in.

T.

[ThistleDown]

Rex,

My apologies; I should have been a bit more clear in making that explanation for general purposes. In the US, there is a common myth that to be "Scots-Irish" is to be half-Scottish, half-Irish, and is still quite common, so that you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!

Of course, we're drifting towards "The Troubles" now, so I'll try to reign my thoughts in.

T.

Ahhhh, says he as the light brightens. Thank you, Todd. Well explained. In Scotland we look across the water to the NA continent and see much of that "romantic mythology" you refer to. The extreme value of this forum is that -- sometimes -- myths can be separated from realities to everyone's acceptance and benefit.

Rex

[macwilkin]

Ahhhh, says he as the light brightens. Thank you, Todd. Well explained. In Scotland we look across the water to the NA continent and see much of that "romantic mythology" you refer to. The extreme value of this forum is that -- sometimes -- myths can be separated from realities to everyone's acceptance and benefit.

Rex

Indeed, Rex. I dealt with it on an almost daily basis when working as a genealogy librarian at my local public library.

T.

[Lallans]

Rex,

(snip)you will find folks who are Evangelical Protestants wearing green on St. Patrick's Day and espousing the romantic "Irish Rebel" mythology that the Irish-American community loves over here, but whose ancestors no doubt manned Derry's Walls and fought with William at the Boyne!
(snip)
T.

OMG, they're on the wrong track there! But how to inform them without making them militant in the other direction?...? Better leave well enough alone unless they start contributing to the "Widows and Orphans Funds" AKA the "Making Widows and Orphans Funds" -which now that I've said it are supposedly things of the past.

And yes, the Scots Irish migration included Hugenots, Border English, and other protestant groups who had sought refuge in Ulster. There aren't many heroes of the Frontier and Wild West era who were not descendants of them. They say Boone was not but I think that just needs work.

[macwilkin]

OMG, they're on the wrong track there! But how to inform them without making them militant in the other direction?...? Better leave well enough alone unless they start contributing to the "Widows and Orphans Funds" AKA the "Making Widows and Orphans Funds" -which now that I've said it are supposedly things of the past.

And yes, the Scots Irish migration included Hugenots, Border English, and other protestant groups who had sought refuge in Ulster. There aren't many heroes of the Frontier and Wild West era who were not descendants of them. They say Boone was not but I think that just needs work.

Boone was of English Quaker stock, although his neighbors were certainly of Ulster-Scots blood, although as we've already discussed, to be "Scots-Irish" is to really be a mixture of different ethnic groups. Also, The Scots-Irish were an "invisible" immigrant group that quickly became Americans as soon as they began to push west, thus confirming somewhat Turner's Frontier Thesis of American history.

T.

[Lallans]

[deleted accidental double post}

[BoldHighlander]

Ulster Scots were originally transplanted to Northern Ireland, sometimes willingly, sometimes not, from the England-Scotland Border area where they had spent the previous centuries in one of the most violent places on earth.

Well, yes & no. Most of my own ancestors who were Ulster Scots I can trace to the Highlands (the few who weren't appear to be English).

Case in point: my McReynolds were of the name MacRanald in the Keppoch region. My ancestor Johne MacRanald/McReynold (an educated man who read & wrote in both Scots Gaelic & in English) fought as an officer for William's army on the continent, and then went on to Ulster, where he participated in the defense of Derry (one story is told that he gave another defender a beating for letting a rat escape during the seige!). He would later settle & die in Co. Tyrone (his stone house/fort & mill still stand there). His great-grandson would go on to fight in the American Revolution, being crippled for life at the battle of Camden.

Anyhow, my point in all this is to echo Todd's point (& that which you later acknowledged) is to let the 'uninitiated' know that not all Ulster Scots were from the Lowlands, which seems to be one of those "myths" that continues to live on to this day (like so much else that has been oft told about the Scots & the Irish ).

Apologies for any hijack of the threads topic.

[Fit2BKilted]

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...h_english.html

Also available in the original latin text: http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotlan...ath_latin.html