"Saffron" colour of Irish kilts?

[macwilkin]

In our article, there are several citations from "The Irish Regiments" by R.G. Harris that discuss pipers wearing standard uniforms and not kilts, caubeens, etc. It is not until WWI that we see Irish regimental pipers in any sort of kilt, et al.

T.

[O'Callaghan]

Wow this thread was just happening over the last couple days and who should walk by yesterday but a group of around ten monks!

Most of the robes were the usual "saffron" colour, but one guys' robe was indeed a brownish shade, and one was a brilliant glowing orange.

Monks and mordants aside, McClintock lays out all the evidence available to him (in the 1940's) all of which points to the saffron colour of the old Irish leine being a light clear yellow.

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis.

I don't think that the colour has any historical basis earlier than the 19th century (except for buddhist monks' robes!), but the dye does. Just look at the traditional (although modern) Irish linen jacket. They are normally undyed, or if dyed, then they are dyed with synthetic dye and probably include some synthetic fabric as well. This speaks to the difficulty of dyeing linen. The same dye will turn a linen leine yellow and a woolen kilt orange/brown.

There is, as I recall, a kiltmaker on Prince Edward Island, in Canada, who will supply kilts in a shade of yellow designed to match the ancient leine, if one is so inclined. I can't really see it catching on, though.

[MrShoe]

Nobody has yet to put forth any evidence which conflicts with his conclusion, that the brown-orange colour used in modern Irish kilts has no historical basis

On the contrary, I think the saffron dye has been established as used on historical Irish garments. The dye effect on different fabric is understood. Wool will soak in much more color than the lighter/thinner lien fabric would have. If the Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

[macwilkin]

On the contrary, I think the saffron dye has been established as used on historical Irish garments. The dye effect on different fabric is understood. Wool will soak in much more color than the lighter/thinner lien fabric would have. If the Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

Pearse freely admitted in a letter in 1900 that his adoption of the kilt over trews (which historical examples for did exist) was not historically accurate, so I would not say he is the best source to making such a point on. It would be interesting to see what HF McClintock has to say about saffron.

T.

[MrShoe]

T.

Guess that I didn't make clear what I was saying.
I was not saying that Pearse chose the "Irish Kilt" because it is "Historical Irish" dress in 1900. I think that has been gone over and over and over and....Nor was I indicating that "brownish saffron" was "Historical Irish" in 1900.

However, it has been over 110 years since the introduction of that "brownish saffron" as an "Irish Kilt". At this point in time, 2010, can it now be said that the "Irish Kilt" in "brownish saffron" is historical? How long does something have to be around to be considered "historical"?

And whatever your thoughts on Pearse are I still stand by my earlier comment of.

Originally Posted by MrShoe
If Pearce had selected a kilt that was yellow, to resemble the leine, it would have not been dyed by saffron. Then we would be hearing that the "Irish Kilt" color has no historical basis because it is not a representation of wool dyed in saffron.

[macwilkin]

T.

Guess that I didn't make clear what I was saying.
I was not saying that Pearse chose the "Irish Kilt" because it is "Historical Irish" dress in 1900. I think that has been gone over and over and over and....Nor was I indicating that "brownish saffron" was "Historical Irish" in 1900.

However, it has been over 110 years since the introduction of that "brownish saffron" as an "Irish Kilt". At this point in time, 2010, can it now be said that the "Irish Kilt" in "brownish saffron" is historical? How long does something have to be around to be considered "historical"?

And whatever your thoughts on Pearse are I still stand by my earlier comment of.

And you're not getting my point: I would like to see what reputable scholar such as McClintock or Kass McGann have to say about what is the correct color for ancient Irish dress, and that given Pearse's self-admitted inaccuracy, he may not be the most reliable source in this debate.

As far as the "original" color goes, I can't speak to that. The saffron kilt certainly has a historical pedigree among the British Army's Irish regiments & the Irish Armed Forces.

T.

[MrShoe]

Todd,

I'm sorry for my ignorance and misunderstanding of your point. I thought it was decided that the "ancient Irish dress" was the leine? That is what McGann and McClintock refer to.
And that the Leine was a dyed saffron the appeared as a bright yellow? I thought there was enough reference to that in art and documentation. But I guess the renowned and trusted sources of McGann & McClintock never refereed to color. Just like with belted brats, they were vague except for indicating some were striped. I don't have copies of their works to reference anything for sure.

As for Pearce's "admitted inaccuracy". I believe you are referring to a statement advocating kilts for the National Dress of Ireland. "a kilt, although it may be less authentic".... than in a pair of these trews." He didn't say he was "inaccurate", just less authentic than trews.
At the time he only had the work of Eugene O’Curry to go by in 1900 and Patrick Weston Joyce in 1903. I believe McClintock was first published in 1943, and was quick to suggest that those who took Joyce and O’Curry at their word were not to be blamed, as they had “what seemed to be ample authority” for adopting the kilt as a form of Irish dress. McClintock suggested the Leine, Brat and Ionar and the Trew. I wonder if the belt would have been on the outside of the brat? lol

I'm not trying to start an argument just stand up for Pearce....Give him some props for pushing the Kilt? I think he had a point..economical, hygienic..well hygienic at least.

[macwilkin]

As I said, I can't speak to their comments, as I'm not able to access their works at the moment -- and the comment McClintock made about excusing Joyce's inaccuracies is in our article. ;-)

T.