Bespeaking of Bespoke - what is your experience?

[MacLowlife]

Time for a new Traditional Thread. I was wondering about bespoke experiences had by Forum members.

Unless I am mistaken, tailored clothing comes in three types:
Off the rack, i.e., made to a "standard" pattern and size,
Made to Measure, i.e., made to a standard pattern, but sized to fit the person ordering, and
Bespoke, made to a pattern designed specifically for the wearer, to his specifications and measurements

Some time ago, I recall reading posts which described a visit to a tailor, but the result was a garment made to the tailor's usual style, not necessarily that chosen by the wearer. My thought is to hear (or read) more about Members' stories of custom (highland) garments, either from traditional tailors, highland and otherwise, or from helpful and talented relatives and others, including garments you have made yourselves.

I am interested in three things in particular:

1) your reasons for choosing the level of custom work you did
2) your method of selecting the tailor/maker, and
3) any comparison you might make between the finished garment and similar garments made in other ways ( i.e., your MTM doublet vs Off the Rack, or your bespoke kilt vs a MTM one, or your home built jacket compared to your grandfather's bespoke, etc. even a comparison between two bespoke tailors)

Let's talk about quality of fabric, durability, practicality, as well as distinction and style. And by all means, if fit is an issue, let's talk about that, too.

I have in mind coats, jackets, doublets, tunics, waistcoats, and kilts, but I expect we could learn about any sewn garments in this discussion.

Thanking you in advance, I am
yr hmbl &c...
M'LL

[Bugbear]

Post deleted.

[JSFMACLJR]

If have several bespoke evening doublets. The best by far is the one I had made by the London firm of Meyer & Mortimer, on Sackville Strret, just off Savile Row. The firm has been around for centuries-literally. They are experts in the field of Highland dress, as well as making uniforms.

I had my initial meeting with the tailor, accompanied by a Highland gentleman of note who is considered a bit of an expert in "matters Scottish" regarding dress. I wanted a velvet doublet cut somewhat like a regulation style jacket. I wanted silk velvet. We settled upon a beautiful shade of blue. We discussed facings and linings. Since I spend the majority of my time in the USA it was thought best to skip a quilted lining. We debated colours for the facings and cuffs, deciding on scarlet ribbed silk for both, as being a very "traditional" colour. Interestingly, white was under consideration for a wee bit, but was eliminated for two reasons: 1. it would show the dirt; 2. white lapels at one time were reserved for the gentlemen on the staffs of colonial and dominion viceroys. We discussed what tartan I wanted for a waistcoat, and the style and cut I wanted ( 4 buttons, on the bias ).

Talk ensued about all sorts of details: pockets, buttonholes ( I wanted one on the left lapel ), buttons, the fabric of the lining. Between my friend and my tailor, I was well advised.

Mr. Munday took all sorts of measurements, as can be expected.I left a deposit, and we set a date for a first fitting in New York City a couple of months later. I had one more fitting ( in London ), at which some changes were made ( including ripping off the right sleeve and repositioning it ). A couple of months later I again went to NYC and had a final fitting and took posession of the jacket.

The doublet fits like a glove! The quality is unsurpassed by just about anything I have seen. I consider the jacket a work of art. I have several suits made by another tailor round the corner on the Row, but I think the doublet is by far the pick of the litter. The staff of Meyer & Mortimer are a delight, and are experts in what they do. They know Highland dress like very few people do. They've been at it for a long, long time. The firm is the "go-to tailors" for officers of Highland regiments, as it has been for more than a hundred years. I have seen a number of doublets the firm has made over the years, all first rate. In the past several years they made an exquisite doublet for a MacLeod grandee with embroidered lapels. They made a pair of trews for my friend, cut on the bias. One doesn't see trews like that very often today. I am told that very few tailors and cutters can use tartan cut on the bias and fashion clothing of such beauty and style.

My jacket cannot in fairness be compared to OTR or MTM jackets. In the family collection of doublets, we have 4 or 5 made by Meyer & Mortimer over the years, as well as several made Jardine, Wm Anderson, and Stewart Christie. We have a nice tartan doublet made by Bernard Weatherill before he entered politics. All are beautiful jackets, but to me my blue velvet jacket stands out as the best.

[azwildcat96]

I don’t think I understand the question…

I’ll use a sport coat as an example: To me, off the rack would be if I walked into a store, or purchased from a website a sport coat in a size 48R. It may look OK, but might need some fine-tuning, like sleeve length, or subtle waist adjustments.

Now if I walked into a tailor shop, and selected a fabric, and chose the style of jacket that I liked, added (or subtracted) specific features that I wanted, the tailor measured me, and then made the jacket, I would call this “made to measure”, or “made to order”, interchangeably. It sounds like this is your definition of bespoke, which is OK, but then what do you consider to be made to measure?

[Tobus]

I'm just as confused as azwildcat96. I would think that any kilt would be considered 'made to measure' since it's made from a pretty standardized pattern, but just adjusted to fit the individual customer. Same thing with any jacket, etc., unless it's a completely custom and original design that's never been done before.

[artificer]

I don’t think I understand the question…

I’ll use a sport coat as an example: To me, off the rack would be if I walked into a store, or purchased from a website a sport coat in a size 48R. It may look OK, but might need some fine-tuning, like sleeve length, or subtle waist adjustments.

Now if I walked into a tailor shop, and selected a fabric, and chose the style of jacket that I liked, added (or subtracted) specific features that I wanted, the tailor measured me, and then made the jacket, I would call this “made to measure”, or “made to order”, interchangeably. It sounds like this is your definition of bespoke, which is OK, but then what do you consider to be made to measure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bespoke

Bespoke generally refers to the CUSTOM creation of a pattern for the commissioner, as well as control of every last detail (buttonholes, lining, etc). Additionally, bespoke was traditionally ALL handmade, although this appears to have 'drifted' a bit in the past decade or so.

[MacLowlife]

I have to admit. I have a little experience with Made to measure, but none at all with true bespoke. Here are the differences as I understand them:
A Bespoke garment doesn't assume anything- it considers that one arm may be slightly longer, or one shoulder higher. It recognizes that a fat man wants his interior pockets to be higher so that his wallet doesn't sit on his paunch, that a thin man wants to look more solid, etc. Lapels and armholes are adjusted to fit the man. MTM simply uses the same standard patterns with no allowance for these idiosyncracies. The measurement gets you a better fit in the length or chest or sleeve, but it starts with the standard factory house model.

As for kilts, consider the variations between a swaybacked man, or one with a fat gut, and one who is short-waisted. A kiltmaker who sees his or her customer can do things that wouldn't occur to someone just reading the measurements. Think of scooped waistbands, for instance.

Is everyone familiar with the tailor's term "assatol"? Many a young man is said to have "No assatol" meaning his hips are as small as his waistline. Often, this changes over time. Kilts can accommodate some variance because of the pleats, but a kilt design based on a stick-straight body doesn't work on a curved one- and again, the body may measure as straight, but may actually be anything but cylindrical. It may be wide and shallow or narrow and deep- apron width has to accommodate this.

The line may blur with kilts, but I expect some of our kiltmakers can do a better job of distinguishing between bespoke ( true custom) and one made to the proper size without seeing the wearer or accommodating his subtleties.

Again, I am mostly asking, not telling...

[MacBean]

I have two bespoke garments: a suit I had made in Chicago in my last year of graduate school. It was beautiful and fit like a glove, but I gained a little weight and it was useless.

The other, you yourself pointed me to on eBay (my undying thanks), the regulation doublet made for a piper in Scotland. I consider it bespoke even though it was a standard form, because the cloth was unusual. He must have worn through too many doublets because this one was made to last. Even so, a lifetime of piping wore out the horiontal threads of the inner lapel; the vertical threads appear to be unbreakable!

My conclusion: you may not be able to draw any general conclusions about bespoke, because bespoke varies so much! But I can guess you are still hankering after a montrose?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Here's my take. If you can afford truly bespoke garments, go for it. With a bespoke garment you are able to dictate everything from fabric and fit (a tad more room on the left side to accommodate my revolver, if you please) to colour and buttons (mauve lapels and, oh yes, elk tooth buttons, thank you very much). Ultimately you end up with a one of a kind, custom garment exactly the way you want it. But exclusivity comes at a price.

And that's the key phrase: At A Price.

My Scottish tailor, Stewart Christie (in Edinburgh), currently charge around 1000 pounds (about $1600) for a bespoke regulation doublet. In contrast MacKenzie Frain (also in Scotland) can supply an excellent made to measure regulation doublet for around 400 pounds (about $600-- see my review). Moving down the scale further, many on-line vendors offer regulation doublets "off the peg" for something in the neighborhood of 300 pounds (just a bit under $500).

Why, one might reasonably ask, the vast difference in price, and is the expensive, totally bespoke doublet really worth the money? I'm glad you asked.

Until 1966 it was possible to purchase a Rolls-Royce or a Bentley from the showrooms of the Murray Motor Car Company in Edinburgh. The cars on offer would be the "standard" models as offered by The Company (as Rolls-Royce was referred to in those days). In effect you were buying an "off the peg" Rolls-Royce. But suppose you wanted a higher seat, the steering wheel lower, and the pedals closer. In that instance a salesman took your order, sent it off to the factory, and in a couple of months your car was delivered. More personalized than a standard car, you were now the proud owner of a "made to measure" Rolls-Royce. Sometimes neither the "off the peg" car nor the "made to measure car" lived up to your expectations or requirements. In that case you were introduced to a firm of coach builders who, like bespoke tailors, would custom build a body for your Rolls-Royce to your exact specifications. Obviously each step away from the standard car added to the cost, with the biggest jump being the gap between made to measure and bespoke.

But is it worth it? Well, yes and no.

The vast majority of people on the planet are perfectly satisfied with off the peg "everythings", kilt jackets and Rolls-Royce motor cars included. And, if you fall into this camp then it behooves you to shop very carefully-- you don't want to spend Rolls-Royce money for a Plymouth. If, on the other hand, you want your feet to reach the pedals and your sleeves to stop at your wrist, then made to measure is the very best way to go.

Which brings us to the bespoke kilt jacket. On purely economic grounds it really is hard to justify the cost; but as a sybaritic indulgence, it is right up there with a custom-bodied Rolls-Royce. Like Max Bialystok said, "If ya got it, flaunt it!"

In my opinion the made to measure jacket is, without a doubt, the bargain of the century (admittedly the century is only ten years old). For very little more than the cost of an off the peg jacket one has nearly all of the virtues of bespoke tailoring, but without the sporran-shattering price tag.

[MacLowlife]

My conclusion: you may not be able to draw any general conclusions about bespoke, because bespoke varies so much! But I can guess you are still hankering after a montrose?

What I am hankering after most is the physique that makes off-the-peg perfectly acceptable. I am very pleased to have a lovely Montrose made in a cotton fabric somewhere between velvet and alcantara. I do wish it were just a touch less glove-like in its fit. In my youth I did not have the protruding middle of middle age. Perhaps as old age comes, the gut may go...

What I still hope to hear more of is the increase in quality (like that additional 2 or 3 % we always heard about in stereo speakers that cost about twice as much) that only custom tailoring can bring. I think you touch on that, MacBean, when you talk about your doublet that was made for someone else. To borrow MoR's analogy, a custom bodied car is unique, even if the present owner did not originally commission the body. And a bespoke garment's superior quality goes beyond the way it fit its original owner.

I must add, my dear sweet mother made my blue Montrose and I would treasure it for that reason alone. Unfortunately, even her considerable skills and experience only got us so far and there are things I would hope to have in a 1000 pound doublet that I do not have in my very nice one.

I am also eager to hear more from people who wanted something that was just not available elsewhere in the marketplace. Josh of Skye Highland Outfitters (Our Own NorCal Piper) kindly had his doublet maker build my red PC to my measurements, but neither Josh nor his tailor ever saw me and my disappointing physique. I like the PC and it fits me well- don't get me wrong- but it is MTM, not bespoke. It was surprisingly affordable and it draws favorable comment when I wear it.

Surely there is someone with a Hong Kong Tailor story, or maybe a Middle Eastern one- some adventurer who had the good fortune to meet an accommodating tailor in some far flung corner and brought back a real gem- or maybe a real disappointment, I don't know...