Which Clan?

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

My Scots were all here by 1776, so if I choose tartan with them in mind,I struggle a bit with the idea that I am bound by rules that did not exist when they lived.

You have raised a very good point, and if I may, allow me to point out why you may wish to consider-- as you have put it-- "following rules that did not exist when they lived."

When your ancestors came to North America they were not part of a giant migration that saw all of Scotland leave for the New World. On the contrary, they were but a small portion of their own family who moved; cousins, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, aunts and uncles-- were quite probably left behind. While your ancestor was busy settling a new land, back in "The Old Country" your extended family-- your "clan''-- was keeping broader Scottish culture alive. What little of Scottish heritage was handed down in North America, generation upon generation, became an ossified relic of what once had been, as opposed to what was happening then and there, back in Scotland.

If your ancestor had stayed in Scotland, today you would be following the "rules" of a living, breathing culture. That being the case, I can see no reason why someone who proclaims their Scottish heritage should, at the same time, forsake the cultural standards that have evolved in their absence.

Perhaps it is the traditionalists who really are the ones that have moved with the times?

[rondo]

Perhaps it is the traditionalists who really are the ones that have moved with the times?

Really? Are you kidding? With all due respect MoR, I normally find your post enlightning and thoughtful but couldn't disagree more with this portion of your post.

Rondo

[macwilkin]

Really? Are you kidding? With all due respect MoR, I normally find your post enlightning and thoughtful but couldn't disagree more with this portion of your post.

Rondo

And I respectfully disagree would say Rathdown is on to something here; Celeste Ray discusses a similar phenomenon at American Scottish games and festivals in her book Highland Heritage.

As a traditionalist myself, I'm wondering why you would react so negatively towards an observation by someone who has lived on both sides of the Atlantic?

T.

[rondo]

Progress is made by those who push the envelope. Period. I will now remove myself from this post as I feel a philosophical debate is unwaranted and would be unproductive. See you all in the Modern forum as I'm convinced that is where I belong...being one who, while honoring the past is clearly focused on the future.

Rondo

[Downunder Kilt]

I agree. I actually like that the gloves are slipping off a bit on this topic. It is often discussed in a polite code that is less than clear to me. If I am going to adopt someone’s symbol I want to understand how that will be viewed from the perspective of the folks who are caretakers of that symbol. I don’t feel anyone is trying to force me to do anything. They are just explaining how “it is done”.

And you, as the OP, did ask for the Scottish perspective on clan affiliation.

[macwilkin]

Progress is made by those who push the envelope. Period. I will now remove myself from this post as I feel a philosophical debate is unwaranted and would be unproductive. See you all in the Modern forum as I'm convinced that is where I belong...being one who, while honoring the past is clearly focused on the future.

Rondo

Pity you won't engage in discussion, but I'll leave you with two quotes from great men:

Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.
-- G.K. Chesterton, "Orthodoxy", 1908.

People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors.
-- Edmund Burke

As Chesterton warned, "Beware of chronological snobbery".

T.

[rondo]

Ossified:
ossified - set in a rigidly conventional pattern of behavior, habits, or beliefs; "obsolete fossilized ways"; "an ossified bureaucratic system"
fossilised, fossilized
inflexible - incapable of change; "a man of inflexible purpose"

Ossified therefore Traditional.

Which is why I have decided that the Modern forum is where I belong. I am and American descended from Scots who were forced from their homes during the Diaspora. It is my choice to honor them in what ways I may deem appropriate while moving forward, as I see fit. I am not bound by any artificial code harkening back to the lost homeland [boo hoo, boo hoo (sarcasm intended)]. If they wanted me there they wouldn't have kicked my family out.

My Clan Chieftan lives in Escondido, CA, the hereditary Clan Chief lives in Florida. Discussion of how its done 'there' seems pointless in view of this. I wear the Kilt. I wear it how I wish. It is the tone of some of the Traditionalist that really gets under my skin. It comes across sometimes [and I'm sure this is not true in many cases] as a sort of "this is how we do it and if you don't do it this way you aren't as good as us" kind of snobery.

As a point of fact: I have been to Scotland 4 times when serving in the Navy. While there I saw 3 Kilted gentlemen, 2 of them were from one of the Regiments [not sure which as this was late 80's]. To me, it seems as if Scots have virtually abondoned the Kilt. Too bad...but the KIlt is alive, here. So I'll wear it, how i want, where I want, and when I want until the Kilt police pull off my dead corpse. Have a very, very good day.

Rondo

[davidlpope]

For those people without a patrilineal affiliation with a clan, how have you chosen which clan with which to affiliate? I am particularly interested to hear from those of you who are actively involved with clan associations. When choosing "the closest" have you gone with closest to the patrilineal line (e.g. your g-g-g-g-grandmother, but married to the man with your surname) or closest to you genealogically (your mother's mother's father)? If you have several Scottish ancestors who all are equally close, how did you choose? Was it because of a close relationship to you personally or to one of your parents?

I am also interested to hear from those of you who live in Scotland to hear how clan affiliations work with the folks you know.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Good question and one that I've given quite some thought to. In my case my surname is of English origin. In fact most of my researched heritage is that of English emigrants who settled in coastal Virginia in the mid-seventeenth century and whose descendants moved south and west into North Carolina. My mother's side of the family features Lowland Scots and Ulster Scots, but I haven't identified one Highland surname in the bunch.

I became very interested in Highland culture, though, in late high school and close on twenty years later I'm still intrigued by the history and traditions of the Highlands of Scotland. It's unlikely, though, that any of my ancestors ever wore kilts.

In my case, I became good friends with my piping teacher, who was very active in Clan Macmillan. As my wife and I attended local highland games we hung out with the Macmillans. Then one day we we talking with some of the folks at the clan tent and they mentioned the fact that my wife's mother's surname is Brown, a surname associated with Clan Macmillan. A little genealogical work showed that Jeannie's Brown ancestor emigrated from the southwest of Scotland, not far from Macmillan lands. Jeannie joined the clan branch and over the next few years we became more and more invested in the friendships we had formed with folks within the "clan". In 2004 we had the opportunity to meet the clan chief, George Macmillan of Macmillan and Knap. I was impressed with his friendliness and unassuming demeanor. A few more years passed and I decided I was willing to have a greater commitment to the goings-on in the clan association. I wrote to Chief George and asked his blessing to be his clansman and wear his tartan and crest within the strap and buckle. He kindly wrote back in acceptance and I am currently a vice-president in the clan association.

So, at the end of the day I figure if I offer my loyalty to a clan chief and he accepts me as his follower, then I'm a member of his clan...

In general, if you have highland ancestry then I'd encourage you to go with your closest highland ancestral line, unless there's already an established tradition of clan identity in your family. All other things being equal, I'd encourage you to find a clan with a chief that takes his role seriously and that you respect. After you've established a relationship with a clan, though, I think you should be exclusively associated with that clan.

That's my experience, YMMV.

@Jock Scott: What do folks in Scotland do when they do not have a surname that lines up with a clan name? I understand Mr. MacOnion (or Mr. Onion for that matter) wearing a MacOnion tartan. I'm more interested in which clan Mr. Potato (where no Clan MacPotato exists) associates, if any. Or do they simply not associate with a clan? Also, what (based on your experience, as I know you cannot speak for the whole of Scotland) is the participation of Scots in clan associations? Or is simply being a MacOnion enough? I suspect that most clan associations are fueled by people outwith Scotland with Scottish roots or ex-pats, but I'd hate to jump to conclusions there.

As to which tartan, that was easy for me. I think all of my family lines save one or two have been documented as being here in the American colonies prior to the Revolution, and most of them in the Carolinas. Those last few are not documented and so far there are no lines that are documented as being somewhere other than the colonies at any point after the Revolution. I honor all of my Scottish ancestors collectively by wearing the Carolina tartan, the district to which they emigrated.

Right now I'm interested in clan affiliations as it regards to participation in a society, not the wearing of tartans. I don't have the financial wherewithal to join the society for every Scottish ancestor and I'm trying to pare down my options.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

(Still waiting to hear from Kyle Smith and David Pope.)

Shoot me a PM if you have further specific questions.. Btw your package went out yesterday. Sorry for the delay, it's been a crazy week.

[Morris at Heathfield]

Really? Are you kidding? With all due respect MoR, I normally find your post enlightning and thoughtful but couldn't disagree more with this portion of your post.

That's funny, because he essentially agreed with an argument that is more often made by those on the other side of the debate.

Perhaps it's because I'm a student of language, but I see his point...and don't entirely agree with it. It's sort of like arguing over British vs. American English. The British will say we've changed English, and they are undoubtedly right about that. Then they'll imply they haven't, and they're undoubtedly wrong about that. If such a person as Robin Hood actually existed, he didn't sound like Kevin Costner, and he didn't sound like Cary Elwes either. But he most likely did pronounce all his r's. Sometimes I wonder where the British think all those post-vocalic r's in their written language come from. MacMillan of Rathdown is essentially agreeing that the British (in most English dialects) have dropped their post-vocalic r's, calling it "moving with the times", while implying that the Americans haven't also "moved with the times" in some ways as well. (I don't mean to trivialize the subject of clans and their symbols, but let's just say that some people get het up about language as well.)

My own very vague opinion on the matter is that wearing the kilt in the UK is a matter of custom, whereas in the US, where kilties are more widely scattered, custom has had less of an opportunity to grow on its own, but is not entirely nonexistent. What one may do in the US may not be what one does in the UK. Is the US starting to create its own separate set of customs regarding the wearing of the kilt? Maybe, maybe not, as the kilt will probably always be seen as a Scottish form of dress. However, just as one ought to be aware of some of the differences between UK and US English when visiting the UK, one also ought to be aware of local custom when visiting Scotland, even if one doesn't observe it while in the US. On the Internet, nobody knows what you're wearing unless you post pictures. Also, if someone wants advice on the wearing of the kilt from someone who lives (or has lived) in Scotland, he should be prepared to receive it. That doesn't mean he has to follow it, of course, but then why did he ask?

[rondo]

That's funny, because he essentially agreed with an argument that is more often made by those on the other side of the debate.

Eloquently said, Morris. You manage to capture what I am feeling minus the emotion. Well done.

Rondo