The Craftsman versus the Industrial Complex

[Moski]

I'm not surprised. I suspect you don't have any idea what I've said.

Posts like this seem to come out of nowhere--no quotes...offending or otherwise...no references to actual words or concepts, no speaking to the actual discussion. Just "feelings."

There is a good discussion here...with little or no hostility or vitriol being generated...I'd prefer to keep it that way.

I was trying to be non-confrontational and speaking broadly.

I do know that things made in a factory...or from a mentality that buys into all the priorities of a factory...reduce our sense of connection. The products themselves almost universally have a sterile quality about them that is devoid of authenticity. And how could they not be? It's all copies, clones and ticky-tacky

What is that other than your "feelings" about "factory" goods. And I'm not looking to "make a connection" with my shoes, kilt or skivvies, nor am I looking for some level of "authenticity", whatever that means to you.

I don't know that everything made since the Industrial Revolution is crap.

I read the above to mean that Most if it is in your opinion.

I'm looking to wear something that is practical, fits into the place I've determined it should in my finances, that is to say affordable by my reckoning, and fits my life. I'm sure you make a wonderful product that anyone who can afford them would cherish. But affordable is not "an excuse" or a synonym for cheap (low quality). For those of us using the word referring to our own purchasing power it actually means what it says.


Oh yeah. The "Kilt Police" aren't real so they cant enforce anything. It's a term used for very real people who take it upon themselves to people who they think are dressed wrong, be it a style that offends their sensibilities or is "simply not done", material that "just isn't an acceptable substitute", or equating anything less than top of the range with junk (kind of an insult to several kiltmakers here who do make that "junk") , or simply beneath what they consider an acceptable standard.

[Moski]

I was just thinking about my dress shoes. Very similar to my Army low quarters but with a plain toe cap. Simple, goes with everything I have and have served my well for the past 18 years and resoled once. I'm ashamed to say I wasted $65 on those affordable shoes when I could have spent more.

What I'm getting at is that price is not locked point for point with quality. Nor is price necessarily an indicator of quality. I honestly expected 10-12 years tops from them. Guess I took better care of them than I thought.

"Gateway" items are all over. People will tend to take the little leap if they can before the big plunge.

I apologize if I've come across as cranky. I admit I have a negative reaction to apparent elitism or someone looking down on others.

i for one love the Idea of pockets on kilts, and plus whatever on more 16oz PV tartans.

[DWFII]

I was trying to be non-confrontational and speaking broadly.

OK.

What is that other than your "feelings" about "factory" goods

It's a rational and objective description of reality. When things are mass-produced--each item coming off the assembly line is a duplicate of the one preceding it. There is no creativity involved in producing copies...especially if they are copies of, and poor copies at that, better made goods.

Is my characterization an opinion? Yes. does it involve a perspective that is perhaps unique to me? Yes. Does that make it wrong or without substance or evidence to support it. It does not.

If I were making up definitions for words that are common currency... and have been for literally thousands of years; or putting words into another person's mouth that he did not utter....then it would surely represent little other than feelings.

And I'm not looking to "make a connection" with my shoes, kilt or skivvies, nor am I looking for some level of "authenticity", whatever that means to you.

Which only means that you're one of those " feeding the octopus." If you don't know how your shoes are made; don't care where or by whom, at what wage level or in what conditions; or what the real cost--the cost you pass on to your children and grandchildren--of petro-chemical based dyes, rubber outsoles glues, etc., is, then you pass through this world making my point for me in every action you take. (and just to forestall the quibbling...I said "If." )

I read the above to mean that Most if it is in your opinion.

I have never done a survey of "everything". I'm sure some things are exceptional. Computers surely are superior to abacuses (what's the plural of abacus?). But most mass produced goods that I have come into contact with...to the extent that they replaced something that was not mass produced...are, by comparison, meant to fall apart. And, of course be thrown away and replaced by another purchase...thus insuring a never ending cycle of dissatisfaction and consumerism, land fills and great floating masses of garbage in the Pacific Ocean. No matter the cost to jobs, the environment or culture.

And go back and think about the words "by comparison."

Oh yeah. The "Kilt Police" aren't real so they cant enforce anything. It's a term used for very real people who take it upon themselves to people who they think are dressed wrong, be it a style that offends their sensibilities or is "simply not done", material that "just isn't an acceptable substitute", or equating anything less than top of the range with junk (kind of an insult to several kiltmakers here who do make that "junk") , or simply beneath what they consider an acceptable standard.

So what? I have heard the insults and the characterizations in the other direction. So what? I remember something I learned in grade school many years ago--"Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Where's that famous independent spirit? The one that sticks its finger in the eye of authority and definitions and orthodoxy and Traditionalists?

[DWFII]

DWFII; Let's slow down a minute. I did't say you were the kilt police. I just said that I had run into them a lot, then I appologized for mistaking you for one. After having a discussion with you, I am sure that you and I will be able to disagree, without any ill will. I consider an Amerlkilt to be a "real" kilt, and if you don't, I'm sure we will be able to agree to disagree. Most "traditionalists" on these forums would agree to disagree with me on this point. But there are many who can't. They are so deeply offended by the thought of anyone dressed in a less than orthodox way and calling it a kilt, that they simply can't agree to disagree. These are the kilt police. They enforce their law by belittling, name calling, and insulting, and generally trying to drive away anyone who would dare call anything but a bespoke 16 oz wool kilt a kilt. Anyone that dares defend himself when called a cross-dressing deviant is accused of "traditionalist bashing"

Again, I'm not accusing you of any of this. I've appologized for that. I'm simply debating the existence of the "kilt police"

At this point it seems to be "dogpile on DWFII" time in here. If anything in this post sounds at all like an insult to you, please point it out, as it is probably just unfortunate wording on my part.

Have Fun,
Tom

OK...reset. No harm, no foul.

And no worries about insulting me. I may occasionally get impatient or come back at you as sharply as I suspect you have come at me...but I am not so thin skinned that I take insult at any and every disagreement.


PS...I said in my reply to Rocky...with regard to "Off Topic" that I was willing to move on if everybody else was.

???!! Are we Off Topic yet?

[ThistleDown]

Be reminded that this is a forum for polite ladies and gentlemen and not one where the slightest hint of confrontation is acceptable. If you wish to play nicely with each other then carry on in a different fashion that some of you have been to this time.

[tripleblessed]

I deleted a post on another thread after rereading and after rethinking it seems more fitting here, anyway. And maybe ties the off-topic to the topic.

DWFII and I have both spent many years working in physically demanding trades, long enough for us to become dinosaurs and our trades almost unrecognizable to those we learned from. We have learned the value of work done by known hands, and the dangers of assuming cookie-cutter techniques are equal to the ones we learned, and hands that earned a living wage and respect. Our perspective should count for something.

We here are the drivers of the evolution of the kilt, and the survival of the traditions. We must help find the ways those things can work together. There is a way. I may not know it any more than the next guy, but my faith is strong that it does exist, and can be found. If nobody stands up to say quality counts, DWFII is right, the next generation will not know it, and will not know to look for it. Computers and assembly lines can't do what we do. They can approximate some of it, but with different energetic results. My father and I split our working years among several trades. We were both good at all of them. I was said to be the best people had ever seen at certain aspects, but I would never claim the mastery DWFII has attained. I did, however, gain a profound respect for WORK. It's a great spiritual practice. It's good for the soul, and when approached that way imbues it's results with qualities not possible in robotic processes or sweatshops. To lose this would profoundly damage these traditions.

Not to be totally Luddite here, I find it astonishing that we have come to a point where a patient at risk in transplant situations can have a collection of his/her own cells made into a DNA soup to be used as ink in computer printers to PRINT an organ to replace a damaged one, and with one's own DNA, no rejection problems. These approaches have value as well.

Evolution will continue whether we participate or not. There has to be a way to continue to include master craftsmen.

[DWFII]

DWFII and I have both spent many years working in physically demanding trades, long enough for us to become dinosaurs and our trades almost unrecognizable to those we learned from. We have learned the value of work done by known hands, and the dangers of assuming cookie-cutter techniques are equal to the ones we learned, and hands that earned a living wage and respect. Our perspective should count for something.


Evolution will continue whether we participate or not. There has to be a way to continue to include master craftsmen.

Thanks TripleBlessed.

I was done with this off-topic digression...tried several times to let it go even as others seemed reluctant.

But I feel the need to respond to your comment.

I was watching "Lark Rise To Candleford" last night with my wife. An episode in which some of the first agricultural machines are being introduced to a community that has lived on the land for generations. And, of course the inevitable conflict between "modernity" and "Tradition."

It's fiction, of course and a well-worn subject for novels essays, poem, movies. I suppose that's suppose because no one knows what to do to resolve the conflict. Or if they do, no one wants the disruption in their personal lives that it would require.

And at end of the episode, I realized I just didn't belong here--XMarks. I don't fit into this community. (I probably don't fit into this century.) Undoubtedly my own fault--I don't speak the language...rely too much on dictionaries, literary conventions and despise the Twitter/Tweet/Twit syndrome that passes for communication in this brave new world.

No big deal.

I'd like to see the Scottish woolen mills survive without having to sell out to the Koreans or the Chinese or even the American. I'd like to see them survive without having to resort to poly-viscose or printing tartans. I'd like to see the skills that are unique to that industry passed on to another generation...and another...and another. A concept that has no value in this time and place.

I'd like to see the kilt remain a tribute to Scottish history and tradition and culture. To be something unique and wonderful in the world...and if that means that they are expensive enough that a man will only own one in his lifetime, why then all the more reason to treasure it.

I'd like to see the kilt remain an artifact that is made by people who care about what it represents (other than a profit, I mean), about what is embodied in every stitch just by virtue of the fact that a human being placed those stitches...deliberately, each and everyone...rather than how fast it was done or what machine did the work, how the efficiency has gone up with the elimination of another ten people and their jobs. "Look Ma! No hands!"

I hate the cookie cutter mendacity of mass production and I hate the disposability of people...of cultures, of traditions, of connection. I hate the way in which the "factory mentality" devalues human beings, their skills, lives and creativity. I hate the way the vast majority close their eyes to this aspect of contemporary society...don't know, don't want to know.

As TripleBlessed has suggested, I'm a dinosaur. I was born at the cusp of this brave new world--where such considerations are now so alien as to be almost incommunicable.

I'd like to see the kilt survive...some things, some parts of that old world ought to, are worth preserving as more than interesting museum exhibits. I look around...I look at history...and I don't see many, if any, examples to give me much hope or faith that it will.

Because you can't sell Talisker to Diageo and expect the old venerable distillation methods to survive for very long...probably less than a generation, if that. You can't watch Lochacarron being sold to Koreans and not get a sick feeling in your stomach.

The more water you add to a single malt the less you taste the whisky. The less whisky there is by volume. What's the point? I'll take mine neat...water by.

My last word....no big deal.

[English Bloke]

... I realized I just didn't belong here--XMarks. I don't fit into this community. (I probably don't fit into this century.) Undoubtedly my own fault--I don't speak the language...rely too much on dictionaries, literary conventions and despise the Twitter/Tweet/Twit syndrome that passes for communication in this brave new world. ...

If I may, I'd beg to disagree. (sigh! Not again he says.)

I've loved your recent posts on tradition against modernity. I value your opinions and have not tried to counter because I find it difficult to argue against what you say. In addition your arguments are considered, beautifully delivered and you remain civil at all times. I too can't be doing with twittery twaddle and txt spk.

You Sir have just as much place here as the rest of us. We may not agree on all points but where would be the fun in that eh?

Please stick around, I don't think the tables we sit at are THAT far apart and I'm sure we would enjoy each others company in the real world. Me in my Levi, you in your BD, although we'd be hard pressed to find a tipple to enjoy that's not wholly or partly owned by Diageo.

[Mike M.]

With respect to the manufacturing argument, I'd like to point out that high-end craftsmanship never goes out of style. Not among people familiar with it. There is the question of affordability...and the problem of a "negative snobbery" by people who lack the knowledge to appreciate top quality. You see it in the shooting sports all the time. But the appreciation is always there.

Now, back to the original question...I'd like to see more makers offering low-yardage kilts. The kilt pin holes sound like a brilliant and obvious idea. Heavyweight PV sounds good. Printed tartan? If you used a heavyweight base material, it might be a workable proposition. Wool isn't always the right fabric, I could see some of the modern wicking fabrics being useful for hot weather. Pockets? Feasible, but a bigger sporran makes more sense. That being said, people are carrying a lot more these days.

[Mael Coluim]

This thread has been created from off topic posts in the thread, ‘What would you like to see in a kilt” in General Kilt Talk. Those posts have been moved here to allow those interested in the topic to continue their discussion if desired.