Significance of these types of clan pins.

[Harold Cannon]

Good Grief this thread has gone a long way from where I started it!

On another side. Does anyone know a good silver smith other than the one Matt Newsome uses, that is HERE IN THE STATES and that does custom work? I want a good clan crest made to my specifications.

[Jock Scot]

[QUOTE=OC Richard]



Just so you know, this fine soldier(doesn't he look young!) is a Sergeant Major, although I suspect looking at his staff he is probably the
Drum Major, and in shirt sleeve order they wear a leather wristband, as per your picture, with a crown on it. A Sergeant Major with their full uniform, will have a crown sewn onto the lower sleeve. In the days of that picture, Officers would wear their rank insignia on the shoulders, even in shirt sleeve order.

[Moski]

Alright we are both speaking with the utmost of respect, that is good and I am glad.

It is the mixing of the two cultures that I have a problem with. The Scots kilted one and the US ex-serviceman wearing his decorations one. No one is attempting to force anyone to do anything. What I am suggesting is by wearing a Clan tartan kilt showing an interest and connection(by implication at least) to Scotland and of course wearing your countries decorations connects you to your homeland. All I am suggesting is that the two cultures do not happily mix. Take either in isolation and it works, put them together and I am not so sure..

I think the two do mix in a fine show of the individual heritage of the wearer and personal accomplishments of the wearer. Look at it as the American mate of the Regimental tie. Isolation cuts off and sequesters both.

Now wearing a USMC tartan kilt, for example, does add another dimension to the discussion and in truth, I have not really come up with satisfactory thoughts about that, but at least by wearing a Unit tartan does take a large chunk of "playing at being a Scot" thing away from the discussion.

USMC kilt and decorations proves the point and nicely shows that the two do mix when appropriately done. Part if the problen is the "playing at being a Scott" which is, (on my limb here...but I think a strong one) for most kilt wearers a grossly inaccurate statement and assumes an insulting posture because we're not Playing at being anything. I think if we get rid of the negative assumption we'll have clear air to see the respect and homage to both "cultures".

But you do indeed keep us thinking

[EagleJCS]

... "playing at being a Scott" ...

Gents, please be careful with using one 't' vs 2 't's (i.e. Scot vs. Scott). The first describes folks from Scotland or having Scottish heritage. The second is a family name and a Borders clan (where it's actually more likely to be described as a group of associated families rather than a clan in the Highland sense, but that's another discussion).

Back to the previous discussion...

[Geoff Withnell]

If one says that it is proper to wear military insignia on day wear civilian Highland attire because the kilt is "clothing, not a costume", does this mean it would also be appropriate to wear military insignia on western wear if attending a rodeo? Or on a leather jacket if going to a motorcycle rendezvous? Or how about on a suit coat or jacket when going to church or synagog for Divine services?

I think the key phrase is "proper occasion"-- taking part in a veteran's day parade with one's local VFW Chapter would seem like a proper occasion; going to the Kentucky Derby probably isn't.

Perhaps someone can explain why a Scottish Games is a proper occasion to wear military insignia with civilian clothing, but a British car show isn't?

Because, IMHO, at Scottish Games at least in the USA, the colors will pass in review, and the national anthem will be played. I HAVE worn ribbons will dressed for western square dancing (essentially "formal" cowboy), in a business suit, and in polo shirt and slacks.

The point of honors and awards is to inspire others, especially young people, to emulate the example. While I do not consider myself a hero, I believe it is a good idea to make folks aware that their friends and neighbors served with honor.

[Geoff Withnell]

I think my "eye" has been struck by a similar thing, Jock. At our local Games many American wear an incongruous mix of Scottish civilian and US military attire.

Specifically, they wear US military khaki shirts complete with sleeve patches, epaulette pins, collar pins, ribbon bars, and so forth, exactly as they would while serving in uniform, but these shirts are combined with civilian kilts, sporrans, hose, and headdress.

Thinking about why it strikes my eye as odd, I suppose it stems from two factors

1) the mixing of civilian and military attire in general can look odd, even if the two are from the same nationality: would these same men wear their completely badged uniform shirt with Hawai'ian patterned shorts, flip-flops, and top it all off with a fedora? Perhaps they would; but that too would strike my eye as strange-looking.

2) for the last 40 years or so I've seen many thousands of examples of the kilt worn as a British military garment and my eye has got quite used to the sorts of shirts, kilts, sporrans, hose, headdress, etc which co-ordinate together to create the image of the Scottish soldier. Now, if a person were to be dressed like a Scottish soldier but wearing a Pickelhaube it would strike just about anyone as strange.
It strikes my eye equally strange to see a fully badged US military shirt worn with the kilt, especially the shirts with the sewn-in ribs which delineate the traditional pressing locations, because the shirts worn customarily with the kilt in the British military are nothing like that:



It might not be clear from this small photo, but these shirts are worn in the Army with no badges or pins patches of any sort whatsover. No epaulette pins, no collar badges, no sleeve patches, no medal ribbons, nothing.

His badge of rank is worn on the wristband. Corporals and Sergeants wear theirs on armbands: they are not sewn onto the shirt.

The shirt itself lacks the sewn-in ribs that US military, police, fire, and EMT shirts have.

Now, people who have served in the US military have earned all those pins and patches and badges and they can proudly wear them whenever and wherever they please and it's none of my business. But I can't help it if it looks strange to my eye to see a fully badged US military shirt worn with Hawai'ian shorts, Lederhosen, or a Scottish kilt (especially a blatantly civilian one).

Actually, the "khaki shirt with the 'gadgets' black glengarry, and personal or unit kilt is the uniform of the Scottish American Military Society, at least locally here.

[Mickey]

Harold, my apologies for assisting in derailing this. I will make inquiries among our local jewelers. We have some top notch ones around here but I can promise that they are rather expensive. I would offer to do it myself, but I'm only just re-learning casting, and not much of an artist to begin with.

Hopefully I can get an answer or two soon and will PM you what I find out.

Again sir, my apologies.

[Jock Scot]

USMC kilt and decorations proves the point and nicely shows that the two do mix when appropriately done. Part if the problen is the "playing at being a Scott" which is, (on my limb here...but I think a strong one) for most kilt wearers a grossly inaccurate statement and assumes an insulting posture because we're not Playing at being anything. I think if we get rid of the negative assumption we'll have clear air to see the respect and homage to both "cultures".

But you do indeed keep us thinking

Keeping you all thinking is my intention.

The "playing at being a Scot" thing is an inevitable Scots thought when you have the Saltire flying at a Highland Games, outwith Scotland, where pipes are being played, Highland dances are danced,Clan tartan everywhere, Clan booths are there, marches of the Clans occur, cabers are being tossed etc., etc.,. I really don't think those Scots thoughts can be avoided, although one should not take them too seriously.

This is my point, with the greatest of respect, when you mix Scots culture(by implication at least) and American military culture(in a civilian context)then to my eyes the two do not gel happily.Of course you and others are at liberty to think otherwise.

Carry on thinking.

[Jock Scot]

Harold Cannon.

My apologies for assisting in derailing your thread.

[OC Richard]

Just so you know, this fine soldier(doesn't he look young!) is a Sergeant Major, although I suspect looking at his staff he is probably the
Drum Major, and in shirt sleeve order they wear a leather wristband, as per your picture, with a crown on it. Officers would wear their rank insignia on the shoulders, even in shirt sleeve order.

Yes that man is the Drum Major of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

His wrist band has three brass badges on it, one above the other, topmost a drum, in the centre a tiny crown, and at the bottom four chevrons.

The Pipe Major's is the same but the top badge is pipes.

Warrant Officers wear a crown, the Regimental Sergeant Major the arms of Britain.

Yes Officers wear their pips on the epaulette of the shirt, the only insignia of any sort worn by any rank on the shirt in that order of dress.