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24th August 11, 04:38 AM
#51
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by kilted scholar
The second concerns the English language. My mother was English. I was taught that deviation from the OED was little short of criminal.
...The genie is now well and truly out of the bottle and a language spoken originally in one country has spread, evolved and developed in countless ways elsewhere.
You are touching on two quite different topics: 1) English dictionaries/written English; 2) spoken English.
About dictionaries and written English, it's a pet peeve of mine, the way that a single man, Noah Webster, succeeded in corrupting the spelling of an entire continent. He was able to do so because he existed at just the right time: the very notion that words ought to be spelled in a certain fixed way was just gaining ground, and in the years immediately following the American Revolution there was strong feeling that Americans should not follow British examples but do things their own way.
So he wrote his dictionary, purposefully ignoring the most-common traditional spellings and creating his own en masse. What had more impact than his dictionary was his elementary speller: it was one of the best-selling books of 19th century America and generations of kids here learned how to spell from it.
Now spoken English is an entirely different matter. Since Elizabethan times, the spoken Englishes of England and America have continued to evolve at more or less equal rates. There are many words in common use in America which have not been in common use in England for 400 years, and visa versa. (This happens whenever a speech community is geographically seperated.)
So in many respects modern American English is closer to Elizabethan English than modern London English is, and a modern Englishman who feels that his speech is more traditionally English than American speech is, is partly right and partly wrong.
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24th August 11, 04:52 AM
#52
Yes, agreed.
But my point is that such an attitude - were it to occur - would be self-evidently indefensible.
Consequently in relation to the argument that those living elsewhere than in Scotland are play-acting by wearing the kilt or this and that, that too is - I submit - indefensible.
Re Phil's earlier comment: The Dutch were hardly insignificant in the USA. New York was earlier called New Amsterdam, and one only has to see the names of some of the US Presidents to see that the Dutch were represented. The point here is that the Dutch immigrants (from Holland, not the "Pennsylvania Dutch" who were from Germany - although that's another story) are unquestionably Americans while also retaining their self-conscious Dutch identity. It is hardly surprising that those of Scots origin (Witherspoon was a signer of the Declaration of Independence) can be American and also prize their Scots ancestry - and no one in the world has the slightest right to belittle them for this. If the native old school Highlanders have a right to their standards, so too do the lineal descendants of the same stock wherever they be, and to suggest otherwise is both unsustainable and impertinent.
I am sure there are few, if any of us, who are other than concerned by the cheapening impact of "tat."
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24th August 11, 05:59 AM
#53
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by kilted scholar
Yes, agreed.
But my point is that such an attitude - were it to occur - would be self-evidently indefensible.
Consequently in relation to the argument that those living elsewhere than in Scotland are play-acting by wearing the kilt or this and that, that too is - I submit - indefensible.
Re Phil's earlier comment: The Dutch were hardly insignificant in the USA. New York was earlier called New Amsterdam, and one only has to see the names of some of the US Presidents to see that the Dutch were represented. The point here is that the Dutch immigrants (from Holland, not the "Pennsylvania Dutch" who were from Germany - although that's another story) are unquestionably Americans while also retaining their self-conscious Dutch identity. It is hardly surprising that those of Scots origin (Witherspoon was a signer of the Declaration of Independence) can be American and also prize their Scots ancestry - and no one in the world has the slightest right to belittle them for this. If the native old school Highlanders have a right to their standards, so too do the lineal descendants of the same stock wherever they be, and to suggest otherwise is both unsustainable and impertinent.
I am sure there are few, if any of us, who are other than concerned by the cheapening impact of "tat."
Not too far from where my Scots ancestors settled after immigration is Pella, Iowa, which is a Dutch settlement that has retained much of its cultural heritage. Orange, Iowa, is a similar settlement. In fact, you'll find a number of towns in Iowa, such as Decorah (Norwegian) and Elk Horn (Danes) which are very proud of their immigrant roots. South of the border, there is Hermann and Friestatt in Missouri, which are German towns.
The Germans also managed to maintain their old world identity as well as being loyal Americans by overwhelmingly volunteering for the Union cause during the Civil War. It wasn't until the First World War when German-Americans were persecuted by "native" Americans and forced to change their names (think Eddie Rickenbaker, whose surname was orginally Richenbacher) and the names of sauerkraut (liberty cabbage) and dachshunds (liberty hounds) -- in Iowa, for example, it was illegal to speak German on the telephone, a challenge for many residents of that state, who were of German origin. Note that it was not the Germans who did this, but their "American" neighbors.
Far from abandoning their heritage, the Germans regrouped after the War and formed the Steuben Society, named for Revolutionary War hero Baron Von Steuben, and began to reclaim their culture and customs.
Even the Highland Scots experienced some of this discrimination in the Revolution, when they were branded as "Tories" due to their apathy for the rebel cause.
OC Richard's post about "tin pan alley" immigrants reminded me of a point raised by the late Dr. Fernec Szasz in his excellent book, Scots in the North American West -- immigrants tend to gather in groups, first in communities from a specific region/town/province, and then later, as those differences melt away, from a specific nationality. This point is also raised frequently here when discussing the transition of Highland attire to Scottish national attire. Excellent post, Richard!
T.
Last edited by macwilkin; 24th August 11 at 06:45 AM.
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24th August 11, 06:20 AM
#54
One factor in this equation that has not even been hinted at is what the economic effects of "Americans playing at being Scots" has on the Scottish economy, or rather what that effect would be if the non-Scot customers stopped doing so. How many of Scotland's weavers, kiltmakers, and other kilt related artisans would go out of business, or have their business severely curtailed, without the support of those non-Scot customers. Jock has said it himself that most Scots who own and wear kilts even occasionally, a striking monority it seems, each typically own only a single, possibly two kilts in their clan tartan, and that those can be handed down for generations, making the native Scot demand for high productivity of all things scottish seem less likely to be a major driving economic force, compared to the diaspora spread worldwide who, in seeking to maintain contact with their roots may order one or often several traditional kilts from traditional scottish manufacturers along with all the accoutrements. Such bastions of the Scottish kilt and tartan industry such as Lochcarron being bought by the Koreans, N Batley Bros nearly going out of business and severely curtailing productivity, Dalgleish undergoing financial troubles and needing a bailout from our dear friend Nick and his partner in Scotweb are all just the most visible examples, others being the lamentable loss of traditional kiltmaking skills amongs the craftsmen of Scotland in general. I would bet, although I have no specific data to support this, that any of our Scotland based advertisers could tell us what percentage of their wares are sold outside of Scotland to non-Scots, and what effects losing that amount of business would have on their survival as traditional scottish wear providers. I am talking real traditional kit here, not tartan shop tat and Pakistani acryllic kilts, but the real thing. I think the diaspora, the "Americans playing at being Scots" as Jock has so eloquently spoken it, may be in part a saviour of the old traditional scottish heritage in Scotland more than a detriment to its purity in Scotland and its presentation of the Scottish way to the rest of the world. Sometimes you have to see the silver lining to the cloud as well as the raindrops it sheds, although it may be the raindrops that appear acutely to be washing away the foundations of your home heritage and diluting it into something less recognizable as being purely Scottish.
Jock, I love you, and your fierce defense of your heritage is more than understandable and commendable and valiant. I can see myself in your shoes, were I the product of the same family and environmental influences. But as an outsider looking in I see a culture that is not economically supporting its own needs for cultural continuity (Scotland), and other cultures (the diaspora) who want to keep a touchstone of their heritage, no matter how thin a connection or how many generations back it may be, or even the usually less than positive reasons for becoming diaspora to begin with, desiring to do their part to maintain that tradition from without since they cannot do it from within. We are not invaders or usurpers of your traditions, rather those with a sincere interest wishing to maintain and , yes, spread those traditions into our new lands, and if some transitions occur to those traditions along the way that is only the natural way of things, to adjust what you have to your new environment.
As one who can generally see many different points of view at the same time without prejudice, including fully understanding Jock and Phil's positions toward the potential spoiling of a proud heritage by non-Scots, I simply do not see the detriment in the diaspora, the distant scots relative, even those of non-scots descent, who have an interest in wearing traditional scottish attire including the kilt, and instead I choose to see the positive sides to it, both economical as well as in helping, in whatever small way, to advance and maintain that very proud and unique Scots heritage and tradition.
One man's point of view, from the less than lofty heights of America.
jeff
Last edited by ForresterModern; 24th August 11 at 06:27 AM.
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24th August 11, 07:15 AM
#55
Many if not all of you have raised very valid points, not least the economic one, in justifying you doing what you do as far as being involved with the Scottish experience. And all of you are missing the point.
Not one Scot is saying you can't wear the kilt, eat haggis, toss a caber or whatever outwith Scotland. If they did object----and they are not, what are they going to do about it? Go to war? No of course not!
Now, no one in Scotland is saying "over our dead body is the Scots heritage to be celebrated outside Scotland". However there are plenty of stories from contributors here about Scots that they have met who, one way or another, do not understand why you need to do what you do. I think Joshua near the start of this thread tells the story of meeting a couple of Scots with fairly interesting opinions, and there have been many more stories recounted on this website saying the same sort of thing------even one from Steve---so it is just not a Jock thing, with him sitting on his "high horse"!
Now, we have perhaps a dozen or so Scots members on this website who see absolutely no problem with the kilt etc. going international and even I am giving ground here! But make no mistake just because a dozen Scots are happy on here does not mean all Scots are as understanding as you seem to think.
Now this "playing at being a Scot" thing that some of you are ever so sensitive about, is thought by many Scots more in terms of a sigh, raised eyebrows, almost total bemusement and a hint of humour, rather than a firm statement of anger, possessiveness, or even a nationalist perspective, it is just that many of us do not understand what you are doing and why you are doing it. They are on the whole NOT, repeat NOT, saying you can't do it. They just don't get it, that is all.
Mind you, telling a Scot how to wear the kilt is another matter entirely!
Last edited by Jock Scot; 24th August 11 at 01:33 PM.
" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of idle minds and minor tyrants". Field Marshal Lord Slim.
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24th August 11, 07:23 AM
#56
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by ForresterModern
One factor in this equation that has not even been hinted at is what the economic effects of "Americans playing at being Scots" has on the Scottish economy, or rather what that effect would be if the non-Scot customers stopped doing so.
How many of Scotland's weavers, kiltmakers, and other kilt related artisans would go out of business, or have their business severely curtailed, without the support of those non-Scot customers.
jeff
I've thought the exact same thing throughout this thread.
ith:
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24th August 11, 07:30 AM
#57
Wow, there are a lot of loaded ideas being casually thrown around here: purity, insider, outsider, culture, nationality, diaspora, etc....
I would just like to point out a nuance in this thread that some people seem to have overlooked. There are no members of Xmarks that are actively trying to prevent anyone from wearing the kilt. That is a losing battle and one not suited to being waged on an international kilt forum.
Despite some Scots' reservations about the Scottish diaspora or even non-Scots wearing the kilt, they generously continue to provide advice from the homeland. There is an important distinction to be made here between feelings and actions.
The original post was making a parallel between the cheapening of culture by commercialism in North Carolina and a similar situation in regards to the kilt. In either case, a hard-line maintenance of 'purity' is probably impossible. I don't have an solutions for Haywood County, but there is a rational argument to made in regards to the kilt.
If one is going to wear the kilt as an item of cultural attire, to honour their heritage, etc., then they should try to at least understand the tradition that goes with it and to wear it respectfully. I think that was a main point way back in Jock Scot's post #2.
EDIT: While I was typing this, Jock beat me to it with his post #55
Last edited by CMcG; 24th August 11 at 07:41 AM.
- Justitia et fortitudo invincibilia sunt
- An t'arm breac dearg
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24th August 11, 08:10 AM
#58
![Quote](http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png) Originally Posted by ForresterModern
As one who can generally see many different points of view at the same time without prejudice, including fully understanding Jock and Phil's positions toward the potential spoiling of a proud heritage by non-Scots,
I don't know how often I have to say this but my view and Jock's regarding the wearing of kilts by non-Scots are diametrically opposed. I know from my own experience that Jock's views are not unique to him and while I respect his right to hold such views they are not views to which I subscribe. Being Scottish is a whole lot more than wearing a kilt.
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24th August 11, 10:39 AM
#59
The closest I have found to a Scottish relative is one John Heald, 1620, from Berwick-upon-Tweed, Northumberland and he, if the records I found are correct, would have been a 9th great grandfather. It's hardly a recent heritage and is a tenuous Scottish connection at best. So, I approach the kilt from a non-Scottish, American, civilian viewpoint. I am just realizing that, in the case of pants, perhaps there is a better way.
Two years ago, I walked with a cane. Then, I discovered minimalist footwear, specifically Vibram FiveFingers. Some research into that led me to realize that my hyper-mobile lumbar disc was being aggravated by a raised heel. Removing the heel removed the issue and I now move normally without a can, running and walking more like a healthy person. For me and footwear, going flat was a better way, even when wearing a suit.
After a couple of years of running, walking, and living with minimalist footwear (or barefoot), I am now being exposed to the kilt. Some runners I am exposed to online use it for their normal running attire. Similar to my path with minimalist footwear, I am researching the product and have reached the (pre-trial) conclusion that perhaps using the kilt is a better way and not just for running.
I respect the heritage of the kilt but, when I go to use it (hopefully soon), it will be simply as the most functional garment I can find for that use and not as trying to 'play at being Scottish' for the day. To me, this makes sense. If the government of an area wanted to restrict usage of an item, they would ban it's export. If they allow that export, why should we not use it if we wish? If we were to exclude using items simply because they originated elsewhere, our choices would be greatly restricted.
If one were to assume my wearing of a kilt were an affectation of being Scottish, they would be incorrect. Of course, my attire may still appear humorous to some with a different background. That cannot be helped, though I may take input to improve my sense of fashion from those more familiar with the kilt. But, that would not change my reasons for wearing one.
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24th August 11, 07:26 PM
#60
For me, it always comes back to a feeling that my history, traditions, heritage and culture are that of the region in which I have lived my whole life. I don't seem to feel what others are feeling when they talk about assorted heritages; a sort of extension of a Old World history and culture.
I've sometimes wondered if this is a little like what Jock is feeling about the same discussions from the other direction.
Haven't been able to express it very well..
I tried to ask my inner curmudgeon before posting, but he sprayed me with the garden hose…
Yes, I have squirrels in my brain…
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