FAO Jock Scot / Phil re: Tat and the Scottish Identity

[seanachie]

Good grief. I wear the kilt because I enjoy it. I don't think my Scottish heritage qualifies me to wear it to another who doesn't have it. If the day came I no longer enjoyed wearing it, I would stop. But that decision would not be made in deference what others thought about my kilt wearing.
Sometimes, I think we just get to serious here. The kilt is just not for Highland wear or location anymore. The genie is out of the bottle!

Preach on brother Ern! I agree with these sentiments very much.

I would add one other personal comment. I grew up in a house where sitting around the table for dinner was mandatory and debate on issues of the day, politics etc were the norm. So I don't get wounded by much that anyone says in a thread. So in addition to the point of getting to serious here, I don't think anyone should get to worked up about any comments. I know I love the kilt and I really like the kilts I own so I am not going to sell them all and give up wearing kilts because someone made a comment that upset me. As my Dad used to say: "don't let them pull your chain".

[Bugbear]

... I believe that thinking Scots just want one to look beneath the stereotypical mythos and find the real Scotland. During WWII when those fine Canadian Highland regiments served the cause of British freedom, who said they were "Playing at being Scots"? In my opinion this is also a time when we need be more accepting of our differences and stand together.

Slainte,

Bjarg Jonsson

Aut Pax Aut Bellum

Here's my thread on Colonel J.A. Currie and the "Red Watch." No one posted in it though, so it kind of fizzled out.
http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...d-watch-66536/

Just slowly creeping through the history of the kilt to which I have access... I'll never be an expert.

[Bjarg Jonsson]

Bugbear,

There was also a kilted Highland Regiment from New York in the Grand Army of the Republic during the late unpleasantness. If my memory is correct they are now an active National Guard Unit in New York. As US forces are no longer on the regimental system, we will never see a Highland Unit in the US again. I have an ancestor, who fought on the losing side of that conflict in Appalachia (KY, VA, TN, GA). When the unit first began they called themselves “The Celtic Highlanders” but they soon changed their name when they became a cavalry unit. Those folks may have been “Playing as Scots” but they were as serious as lead and steel.

Slainte,

Bjarg Jonsson

[Irish Jack O'Brian]

I'd like to go back to the now infamous "playing a being a Scot" comment. Sorry to say, but I think there are plenty of people who do just that.

Wearing a civilian kilt as though it were a costume is like playing dress-up. Now for some people, say at a Ren Faire, that is their intent. But there are others who think they are wearing the kilt as an item of traditional cultural dress, but are actually wearing a highly commercialized and derivative version of it.

If one is a Scot, born and raised, there is more room for forgiveness for looking like a rental shop tragedy. It is their national attire after all. For people outside Scotland it looks like "playing at being a Scot."

I'm not saying that one MUST dress a certain way. Xmarks welcomes all styles and types of kilts. But I think that people should make an effort to A) be familiar with the traditional style and B) find their own relationship with it, whatever that may be.

And anyone who is too sensitive probably shouldn't be wearing a civilian kilt in the first place. Many people, both on Xmarks and in the real world, just love to share their opinions about it and if one isn't prepared to deal with it, then the kilt is not a good choice of clothing for them. I'm not saying that is how it should be, just stating a fact...

This is a thread that repeats much that has gone before, and I don't really think any opinions have changed much. Early on, when I had first joined the forum, there was a thread that truly set me off http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...-advice-63530/

I did not understand then what I understand now. So this board has greatly influenced how I view the wearing of the kilt and how I view the Scots.

I now wear the kilt in three ways and for three purposes:

1. Respectfully - I wear the kilt of the Sutherlands to honor my cousin, William DePriest Sutherland, who was killed at the Alamo. I have learned all the lessons from this forum about the proper acoutrements and decorum that go with a respectful presentation.
2. Casually - I wear a khaki Utilikilt around my property and to parties and sometimes, an acrylic Black Watch for more dressy drinking fests.
3. Costumely/Comically - I have found a dark side to my kilt-wearing. I wear the kilt against all rules, well, not all; but enough, so that if a 'professional highlander' deigns to correct me, I can, in my most 'Jimmy' impression, tell him or her, "Och aye, laddie, the kilt is only for the true HIGHLANDER! A lowlander, like yourself, will nae kin the glory o' the kilt!" I've only gotten to do this three times so far, but it has been darkly satisfactory each time. Two men have walked away muttering, but the coup was the woman who looked me in the eye and we spoke for several minutes and I admitted what I was doing. Her smirk turned to speechlessness. This was at an art opening. I considered that my little piece of performance art was the best piece of the show. If I can poke the eye of a highlander, I will do so.

Must be the Irish side o' me. Why else would I choose "Brigadoon" as an avatar, but to offend the "Respect the Traditions Über Alles" clan?

[Dale Seago]

Sometimes, I think we just get to serious here. The kilt is just not for Highland wear or location anymore. The genie is out of the bottle!

Exactly, and indeed it is. I do have some Scots ancestry on mainly my mother's side, with Irish comprising the biggest part otherwise plus bits of Cherokee, Lakota, Comanche, Choctaw, and Cree.

And often, when I wear the kilt, it's to honor the Scottish (or more generally Celtic) side of my ancestry.

But sometimes when I wear it, it's for no better reason than that women who see me in it want to be with me and men want to be me. Even were the kilt not such a fine and comfortable garment to wear, I'd find that reason enough.















BTW, the first pic above is more recent, from late June; the second is from early May. And yes, that's me in both of 'em.

[Jock Scot]

If one wants to wear Highland attire, then wear it. Wear it well and proudly because you represent Scotland, but if you do not want to wear Highland attire do not wear it- the kinship will remain the same either way. In my way of thinking it is about kith and kin, not about a romantic version of Scotland. I believe that thinking Scots just want one to look beneath the stereotypical mythos and find the real Scotland. During WWII when those fine Canadian Highland regiments served the cause of British freedom, who said they were "Playing at being Scots"? In my opinion this is also a time when we need be more accepting of our differences and stand together.

Slainte,

Bjarg Jonsson

Jock Scot.

I agree with much of what you say and as others have pointed out Latvians, for example, may well feel the same as the Scots do with their Latvian expats and Americans(for example) with Latvian roots! It is the understanding of enthusiasms, realities and points of views that has demonstrably failed both ways for, I think, many.

Assumptions are rarely helpful and straight talking, however painful, often clears the air for all to get on better in the future. This thread is doing just that and it is plainly obvious to me that many outwith Scotland have and are making assumptions that are incorrect. I quite accept and have said so, that many in Scotland don't understand the thought processes of our visitors either. So I don't think those reading this thread need to be downhearted, offended even, over what has been said, as I think we are all that much wiser.

I well remember parts of WW2 and I well remember meeting many servicemen and women from all parts of the World and to a man(woman) the fact that Britain as an Island was not invaded was a pure detail to them, the Empire thing a mere detail too.

I well remember Canadians(and other nationalities) coming to tea with us, going fishing, stalking deer, taking life just a bit easy----as many in the UK did, they did their best to make the " fighting boys from awa" welcome-----not one, that I met, of them considered themselves anything other than representing their particular country in a common cause. Be that, Australian(particularly them! ), Canadian, South African, American and the whole host of other nations. Mark my words Canadians were one hundred percent fighting as Canadians , for a common cause, not for Britain! And Brave people of ALL Nations they were.

[macwilkin]

Bugbear,

There was also a kilted Highland Regiment from New York in the Grand Army of the Republic during the late unpleasantness. If my memory is correct they are now an active National Guard Unit in New York. As US forces are no longer on the regimental system, we will never see a Highland Unit in the US again. I have an ancestor, who fought on the losing side of that conflict in Appalachia (KY, VA, TN, GA). When the unit first began they called themselves “The Celtic Highlanders” but they soon changed their name when they became a cavalry unit. Those folks may have been “Playing as Scots” but they were as serious as lead and steel.

Slainte,

Bjarg Jonsson

There was a proposal in 2002 to reactivate the 79th, complete with Highland kit, but no action was ever taken. Whilst there are no kilted units, there were/are kilted pipe bands in the US Forces; the USAF, USAFR, 7th US Cavalry Regiment, the US Sixth Army and at least one band in the California/Oregon National Guard.

T.

[Phil]

I wonder why this thread has developed into an “us and them” discussion as I don’t believe it started off as such.
I understand that there are some here who were born in Scotland and live and work there and then there are many others who just like to wear a kilt. I also understand that many of the second category feel that they must, in some way, justify wearing what they, rightly, consider to be the distinctive national dress of another people and seek to justify their choice by inventing a tenuous connection thereto. You know the kind of thing.
“My great-great grandmother once lived next door to the second cousin, twice removed, of someone from Scotland”
or
“My great-aunt’s sister had a cat that once belonged a Scottish person”
all of which means to them that they must have a Scottish ancestry and so can perfectly justify why they wear this kilt. I’m sure most here will recognise the syndrome. Some may actually have a genuine Scottish ancestry, lost in the mists of time. The one thing that they all have in common, though, is that apart from occasional vacations to Scotland to visit a castle or two, a pilgrimage to the home of golf, a dabble at Burns’ poems, and a penchant for haggis and shortbread, is that not one of them would actually ever consider living in the place. Not ever. Not in their wildest dreams. So why continue the pretence of being vaguely Scottish? It is not a required qualification to be able to wear a kilt and, if asked, all the wearer needs to say is “I just love all things Scottish”.
So is it all really just a natural subterfuge to justify wearing what is, in the eyes of most of their compatriots, a strange, rather odd and alien form of dress or even in their eyes, heaven forbid, some type of “cross-dressing”. But, of course, being a pseudo-Scot and “honouring my heritage” is a convenient way of circumventing any such perceived peccadillo in the eyes of others.
Come on guys, admit it, you just love wearing kilts.

[Peter Crowe]

I wonder why this thread has developed into an “us and them” discussion as I don’t believe it started off as such.
I understand that there are some here who were born in Scotland and live and work there and then there are many others who just like to wear a kilt. I also understand that many of the second category feel that they must, in some way, justify wearing what they, rightly, consider to be the distinctive national dress of another people and seek to justify their choice by inventing a tenuous connection thereto. You know the kind of thing.
“My great-great grandmother once lived next door to the second cousin, twice removed, of someone from Scotland”
or
“My great-aunt’s sister had a cat that once belonged a Scottish person”
all of which means to them that they must have a Scottish ancestry and so can perfectly justify why they wear this kilt. I’m sure most here will recognise the syndrome. Some may actually have a genuine Scottish ancestry, lost in the mists of time. The one thing that they all have in common, though, is that apart from occasional vacations to Scotland to visit a castle or two, a pilgrimage to the home of golf, a dabble at Burns’ poems, and a penchant for haggis and shortbread, is that not one of them would actually ever consider living in the place. Not ever. Not in their wildest dreams. So why continue the pretence of being vaguely Scottish? It is not a required qualification to be able to wear a kilt and, if asked, all the wearer needs to say is “I just love all things Scottish”.
So is it all really just a natural subterfuge to justify wearing what is, in the eyes of most of their compatriots, a strange, rather odd and alien form of dress or even in their eyes, heaven forbid, some type of “cross-dressing”. But, of course, being a pseudo-Scot and “honouring my heritage” is a convenient way of circumventing any such perceived peccadillo in the eyes of others.
Come on guys, admit it, you just love wearing kilts.

Hi Phil,
I have actually come across the 'cross-dressing' suggestion in the States, which quite frankly with thick hose, brogues, skean dhub etc. is so patently absurd, you know that the person making the suggestion has 'issues'. However, I have to admit I have had more negative reactions in Scotland including the Highlands, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and the Borders, than I have ever had in the United States (albeit I spent much more of my life in Scotland, so this is merely an anecdotal observation and in no way scientific).

I have no problem with anyone wearing what they want, but my appreciation for aesthetics will lead me to conclude whether they are well dressed or a bl**dy mess (either in Scottish Highland dress or in general European/Western dress). I have enough manners not to say anything if it is the latter case.

I agree that there is much more to being a Scot than wearing the Kilt, and that while there is no one size fits all 'Scottishness', there are certain common themes and characteristics connected to a sense of place and certain social attitudes, (sometimes apparently paradoxical)- egalitarianism, family loyalty, plain living and high mindedness, being hard to impress etc.

[Father Bill]

You know - as regards the "us & them" - you're right my friend. It's best were it to cease.

I'm no Scot, but I like Scotland. I like both Scottish history and legends. I like the way the one often encroaches on the other. I love the mountains and the mists, even the fine rain that soaks quickly to the skin. I like Scottish spirituality (a professional interest there). I love the pipes (I even listen to pibroch!) I love tartan, its meaning(s) its look and its feel.

And dammit, I like my kilt. Very much. Verrry, verrrry much! And I'm going to wear it when and where I please. A pox on those who would tell me otherwise. (Not a curse, just a pox - I wouldn't want to do any real damage as a priest.)

Now... having vented self-righteously, what I HAVE learned here, is HOW to wear it. Not when, not where, but HOW, and I'm bl**dy-well going to do so!