FAO Jock Scot / Phil re: Tat and the Scottish Identity

[ForresterModern]

Phil

I think I could take you up on the return to Scotland to live, in my semiretirement years which are not that far off, unless the economy stays in the tank longer than expected. In my profession there is a branch called teleradiology where all one needs is a good computer and a broadband access and one can work from just about anywhere in the world through the online connection and make near what I would be making were I not the chief of my department and needed physically in my current place. I have already, after my two trips to Scotland to date, realized that that place may very well be the right place, as the time shift is perfect for the needs of the job, most of which occurs after midnite in the US, early morning and daytime hours in Scotland. I have never felt more comfortable and welcome in a foreign country in all my travels, and in some ways more comfortable than here at home. Scotland is roughly the size of my home state with similar topography and climate, and IMHO is relatively easy to get around with lots of the activities I enjoy doing and will continue to do so into my latter years. Aside from that driving on the wrong side of the road thing I am pretty sure I could and would fit right in within a pretty short time period, although I would never qualify as a true dyed in the wool HIghlander, either in the hearts or minds of the natives. I would probably wear my kilts far too often and confuse people as to my clan loyalties by being seen in different tartans on too often a basis, and I would have to lose the penchant for wearing my flatcaps with my kilts, lest I have Jock coming down on me from Inverness. But I have greatly enjoyed the time I have spent there, the hospitable people, the day to day tempo (outside the big cities) as it reminds me so much of the land where I grew up, only the folks have a bit of a different accent, sing a different anthem, follow the wrong kind of football, and salute a different but equally regal flag, none of them deal breakers. The royalty thing would take a bit of getting used to as well, I think.

jeff

[Jock Scot]

I have spent most of my life flitting backwards and foreward between Scotland and the Southern Counties of England and without doing so I would not be able to afford to live the lifestyle that I do in Scotland of that there is no doubt. These days I only venture South about four times a year, plus the odd funeral or wedding that crops up. I can assure you that it was generally far colder in Gloucestershire/ Herefordshire/Wiltshire/ Somerset(South Midlands/South West of England)last November and December than it was in Scotland. It was nice to go North to get warm, apart from the cold followed me North!

Day length in winter is shorter in the North of Scotland than further South, but not by too much, and the daylight in mid summer in the Highlands does appear to be noticeably longer.

This one is for you Jeff. Last night we were at dinner with friends and there was a very interesting and pleasant Canadian couple there. They have lived very happily in Scotland, near Elgin I think, for the last five years doing whatever they do over the Internet and they are loving it here. Good for them!

OH, I nearly forgot to mention. He, the Canadian, was the only one clad in the kilt complete with white hose and those dreadful ghillie things , but not a word was uttered about it.

[Phil]

the time shift is perfect for the needs of the job, most of which occurs after midnite in the US, early morning and daytime hours in Scotland.

That is actually an important consideration for anyone who has to work those kind of unsocial hours, provided they don't actually need to be physically there.

and I would have to lose the penchant for wearing my flatcaps with my kilts, lest I have Jock coming down on me from Inverness.

I'll let you in on a secret. I frequently wear a flat cap, even when kilted. I do have a Balmoral but for day to day wear it is a bit OTT, even here in Scotland.

The royalty thing would take a bit of getting used to as well, I think.

Don't worry, we never see them so they won't be dropping in for a drink or anything. If I could lift a quotation from the Declaration of Arbroath -
"Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."
You will see that the Scots have always regarded Kings (and Queens) as dispensable should they betray the people they are expected to defend and this attitude continues to this day.

[Peter Crowe]

Well that's two of you. Any more? I know I wrote that earlier piece a bit tongue in cheek but they do say the most fervent Scots are the ones who have left their homeland. They are the ones who have the Caledonian Balls (virtually unknown here), drink single malt with shortbread and reminisce about bonnie Scotland. That is until there is the suggestion of moving back to the place whereupon you can't see them for dust!
Seriously though, anyone considering it would have to take on board the subtle cultural differences involved. Things like lowering the speech volume a few notches, remembering where the greatest country in the world actually is now, removing expletives from their conversation, making sure to leave any venue where the National Anthem is played in good time (it has to do with that verse " Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King. ",)
look with pride at the Saltire when it is flown, ignoring that other one that smacks of a subject nation. There are too many more to go into than a short post here can cover but they can be picked up over a lifetime.

There are other views on Scottish life than what you posit, my own being different to any expressed here. As an ex-pat I would return to live in Scotland if the right opportunity arose, and would love to be able to retire to Argyll, ideally somewhere between Crinan and Kilmartin.

As to God save the Queen (King) like much in Scottish and British life it has no official status in statute but it's first two verses only are recognised as the national anthem by custom from an XVIII century music hall song. The offensive anti-Scottish verse about Marshal Wade has never been one of the verses sung in it's 'official' capacity. I personally am not offended by it but would prefer "Is There For Honest Poverty" (A man's a man for a' that) as Scotland's national anthem.

I am however, like many (by no means all) Scots somewhat low-key in my enthusiasm for the monarchy. I am generally supportive of the Queen's constitutional role although not particularly interested in the minutiae of the Royal Family's personal lives, but neither am I particularly desirous for Scotland (or Britain) to become a republic in the future. I personally prefer the Saltire argent blazoned on a field azure of St. Andrew but I recognise that it forms an essential base for the Union Flag. I do not therefore regard the Union Flag as symbolic of our country having 'subject status', and to do so is to misunderstand the constitutional nature of the 1707 Treaty and Acts of Union. Scotland may not be an independent sovereign state (an open political question and not one that is appropriate to discuss in this forum) but it is undoubtedly (IMHO) a free country and society.

[Phil]

I do not regard the Union Flag as symbolic of our country having 'subject status', and to do so is to misunderstand the constitutional nature of the 1707 Treaty and Acts of Union.

Believe me I do understand the 1707 treaty etc, but the union jack pre-dates that to the union of the crowns in 1603. It is a small symbol of Scotland's subjugation at that time and as such is long past its sell by date. I do hope you enjoy your ex-pat life and eventually manage to return to Scotland after your time abroad. Meanwhile we will continue the struggle here at home to improve the lot of Scotland and perhaps you will be able to enjoy the fruits of that at some time in the future.

[Peter Crowe]

Believe me I do understand the 1707 treaty etc, but the union jack pre-dates that to the union of the crowns in 1603. It is a small symbol of Scotland's subjugation at that time and as such is long past its sell by date. I do hope you enjoy your ex-pat life and eventually manage to return to Scotland after your time abroad. Meanwhile we will continue the struggle here at home to improve the lot of Scotland and perhaps you will be able to enjoy the fruits of that at some time in the future.

The Union Flag was devised at the behest of a Scot (King James VI) following the Regal Union of 1603 and disliked by the English of that time. To conclude that it is a symbol of Scotland's subjugation is therefore a fallacious argument. Furthermore, it was not used by Cromwell's Commonwealth which attempted to subjugate Scotland.

Where I have chosen to make my life with my Scottish-American wife does not preclude me from maintaining a view or an interest in my native homeland. Furthermore, I campaigned for much of my adolescent and adult life (at least to that point, when I was in my early thirties) for the settlement that was achieved between 1997 and 1999. Is it perfect? Of course not, but perfect is oftentimes the enemy of good enough. However, this is not the forum for that discussion (re: site rules on politics). Suffice to say I have been a net contributor in small ways to the communities where I resided within Scotland when I lived there, and only left for personal reasons without turning my back on my family, country or past.

[OC Richard]

You have inserted (Americans) in the quote which somewhat misconstrues what I was trying to say in that there are other nationalities and many Scots who have relocated elsewhere and who share the same attitude.

Sorry for that Phil! I've removed the brackets. I thought it was Americans and Scots under discussion.

As to weather, I don't know if you are aware, but Ireland and the western approaches, Wales, the west of Scotland and England are among the wettest parts of Britain. The east and particularly the south east of England are the driest areas. Scotland is not particularly cold being influenced by the Gulf stream and a maritime climate and is much less cold than, say, Scandinavia or other places at the same latitude. New York, for instance, suffers much greater extremes of temperature than Scotland does.

Yes the lesser rain, along with warmer temperatures, are among the attractions to southwest England for me.

About Scandinavia and New York, I have no interest in living in either of
those places. The weather in New York is horrible, being far colder than us in winter and hotter (heat index due to humidity) than us in summer.

Just to give an idea of the weather I'm used to:

Average daily high in August, our hottest month: 85f/29c

Average daily high in January, our coldest month: 68f/20c

Average overnight low in January, our coldest month: 48f/9c.

As you can see the average daily high is only 17f different between our hottest and coldest month.

Nearby, San Diego is more even still, the difference only being 12 degrees f.

I looked it up, and Glasgow weather is indeed more even that I would have thought, with a 23f difference. Plymouth's is 19f.

New York City has a whopping 47f degree difference between the daily high of its hottest and coldest month, and has an average low of 23f in its coldest month, much colder than Glasgow's 34f, Plymouth's 39f, and of course Los Angeles' 48f and San Diego's 50f.

[kilted scholar]

Again on this question of expatriates and their cultural and national identification, the following I believe supports the claim that geographical removal from a country does not eradicate sentiments of attachment to that country of varying degrees and intensity.

Most of you won't be aware of this but there has been a series of international cricket matches here in the UK (Test Matches, they are called) between England and India. Each match can last for up to five days of around six hours each (OK, Americans this is not the point of the post!).

On the last day of the first Test at Lord's (in London) there was a huge crowd, half made up of people of Indian extraction. A large proportion were second-generation British Indians, while some were third-generation. These were all vociferous in support of India.

The same feature was evident on the other days at Lord's and also in the other games. This needs no mention to followers of cricket but I doubt whether many on this forum come into that category.

[Peter Crowe]

deleted.

[OC Richard]

On the last day of the first Test at Lord's (in London) there was a huge crowd, half made up of people of Indian extraction. A large proportion were second-generation British Indians, while some were third-generation. These were all vociferous in support of India.

Hah, it's often in sport where the blood runs deep!

It makes me wonder, how many generations living in England does it take for someone of Indian extraction to support England in a cricket match against India?

An analogous thing happens here in the southwestern USA. "Soccer" is only a minor sport in the USA but the most popular sport by far in Mexico. We have millions of Mexican extraction living in the USA, mostly in the southwest.

So, when an international match is held between USA and Mexico in Los Angeles or Dallas, it's a home match for Mexico, the crowd being 90% Mexico supporters. To try to lessen this Mexican advantage, USA Soccer often schedules these matches as far from the Mexican border as possible, better yet if it's a place with colder weather than the Mexican players are used to.

And personally, I'm mostly of English extraction. One branch has been here since the 1630s, the most recent came over from Cornwall in the 1880s. So, in international "soccer" matches I'm an England supporter (except when England is playing USA). And I follow the English Premiership.

BTW I heard about England scoring 700 runs against India a couple weeks ago. I know little about cricket, but I gather it would be like a side scoring 20 goals in an English Premiership match.