FAO Jock Scot / Phil re: Tat and the Scottish Identity

[Jock Scot]

I have often wondered how many years it took my Norman ancestors to consider themselves as Scots and for the Scots to consider them to be Scots. 200 years? 500 years? I know not. However, I doubt very much that both groups would come up with the same answer at the same time.

[kilted scholar]

OC Richard: BTW I heard about England scoring 700 runs against India a couple weeks ago. I know little about cricket, but I gather it would be like a side scoring 20 goals in an English Premiership match.

It's something like that, probably more like 10 (which has yet to happen in the 19 years the Premiership has been in existence) or, better, 9.

[Phil]

I have often wondered how many years it took my Norman ancestors to consider themselves as Scots and for the Scots to consider them to be Scots. 200 years? 500 years? I know not. However, I doubt very much that both groups would come up with the same answer at the same time.

They say that the Normans in Ireland became more Irish than the Irish and I have a feeling that much the same happened in Scotland. I mean the Bruces were a Norman family as were the Stuarts and many other clans such as Bissets have Norman roots. Wallace was seemingly a Welshman so he probably doesn't count but we can call him an honourary Scotsman surely?

[Peter Crowe]

They say that the Normans in Ireland became more Irish than the Irish and I have a feeling that much the same happened in Scotland. I mean the Bruces were a Norman family as were the Stuarts and many other clans such as Bissets have Norman roots. Wallace was seemingly a Welshman so he probably doesn't count but we can call him an honourary Scotsman surely?

Wallace meaning Welshman should also be viewed in the context that much of South-West Scotland (where William Wallace originated) was populated by Ancient Britons or Brytthons (they also occupied much of western Britain from Cornwall to Dumbarton) who were the ancestors of the modern Welsh.

[O'Callaghan]

Wallace meaning Welshman should also be viewed in the context that much of South-West Scotland (where William Wallace originated) was populated by Ancient Britons or Brytthons (they also occupied much of western Britain from Cornwall to Dumbarton) who were the ancestors of the modern Welsh.

Then it's the same as Walsh in Ireland. That surname too means Welsh.

I've stayed well out of this discussion so far, being neither Scots nor American. I'm English, and obviously partly Irish, but live in the US. I wear the kilt because I like to. However, I can point to the Irish nationalists who adopted the kilt over a century ago, or even to the Irish cloaks that eventually became the Scottish kilt after the Irish Dal Riada tribe settled in Argyll, should some sort of justification be needed.

It's also true that I listen to a lot of Irish trad music, but can't really plead too much fondness for Irish food. Irish drink meets with my approval, though.

Not sure if I'd have the nerve to wear a kilt in Scotland, or even Ireland, but here in the US wearing a kilt to celebrate Irishness is accepted well enough, albeit mostly by people who don't really know why. And if I don't necessarily follow every Scots tradition when wearing one, it's because I'm not. The Irish take on the garment was slightly different from the beginning, so as to deliberately differentiate from the Scots. Perhaps in a way, that also shows some respect, by trying to avoid being direct copycats, although nowadays the solid green and solid saffron kilts seem to have turned tartan!

As for moving to Ireland, I've certainly thought about it. It has it's plusses and minusses. I think and act like an Irishman in many ways, but I don't look or sound like one. I'd have to live within staggering distance of a pub, not so much for the reason you are thinking, but more because Irish drink driving laws are horribly strict.

[saxandpipes]

Highland attire could not remain in Scotland, as Scotland's greatest export has always been her people, not tartan. For many descendants of Scots and for ex-pats, Highland Attire is a connection to the mother country- an expression of self and what we sometimes forget- kinship. The kinship is there whether one wears the kilt or not, but when one is kilted one is a little taller, a little more proud. Tradition connects us to the root source of our wellspring, however I grant that innovation is necessary to prevent Highland Attire from becoming a historical costume. However this innovation should be tempered with the advice of folk such as Jock not Calvin Klein. Kith and Kin (R1b).

Slainte,

Bjarg (Aut Pax Aut Bellum)

I have to agree with you cousin!

Cheers,

Michael

[Jock Scot]

I think the traditional kilt and its accompanying attire is ever changing and has always done so. Not as fast as some might like perhaps, but change it does from time to time. I am quite sure that whatever I happen to think and on occasion say, has no effect whatsoever on the direction of its travel.

[Phil]

I think the traditional kilt and its accompanying attire is ever changing and has always done so.

I wonder if it has something to do with its widening appeal, Jock, and the fact that for most kilt-wearers nowadays their kilt is new to them, rather than an altered hand-me-down. There wasn't much you could do with grandad's kilt and doublet so the style stayed much the same. Also I suppose nobody would want to be at a posh social gathering in some outlandish creation which would also maintain what was considered an "acceptable appearance". Social pressure is very strong at such events and conformity is the rule unless, of course, you are seen as a leader of style such as a Royal personage. Anyone else dressing in an "avant-garde" fashion would probably be ostracised as an outrageous exhibitionist.
If you were buying your own, however, and not planning to attend any Court levees and the suchlike no such constraints need apply provided you can find a tailor who is prepared (and able) to create something according to your wishes. I believe you have said on another occasion that any tailor you have patronised had very set views on the style of garment he was prepared to make - a bit like Henry Ford with his "any color as long as it's black". So perhaps that is the real reason why there is continuity of style in Highland dress - a shortage of competent and compliant tailors!

[kilted hillbilly]

Something to grasp onto,a proud heritage. I was never so proud than the day I found out for sure that I had Scottish blood. Seeing other races, ethnicities and such have thier festivals,marches,etc. made me somewhat jealous.Now I have mine, and I will be respectful when wearing the kilt to honor my heritage. BTW, my surname,Pearson, came from Normandy as I understand.Anyway,a very good thread going here!

[Chirs]

...
BTW, my surname,Pearson, came from Normandy as I understand.
...

That is my understanding as well: originally as "Pierre's son".