Why Do Some Take Such Offense...

[Peter Crowe]

I think Anne has hot the nail on the head. Not everyone calling a kilt a skirt has the same intent, and it is foolish to get upset by someone who never intended to offend you. Probably it is still rather foolish even if they did, but those are still two rather different situations. I like the comment about a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, and that is certainly what the second situation can become, if not something even worse.

Also, as she said, it is perfectly correct English usage to refer to a kilt as a skirt, but that brings us back to intent. If you know it is more specifically a kilt, and perhaps that calling it a skirt will offend some people (although not me), then why would you do so? Perhaps to annoy?

On one occasion a lady told me she liked my skirt, I thanked her, and only then she apologised for calling it that, implying that she had only just remembered that it was called a kilt. Clearly she had no intention of saying the wrong thing. If a man said it I would be more suspicious, but that has never happened to me (yet). I am not one to turn down a compliment from a lady, especially not based on something as trivial as terminology.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here, and it pretty much agrees with what some of us have said in the course of this discussion. After re-reading your post with Anne's included, I re-examined the use of language, and you are right that in both the English (OED) and American (MWD) dictionaries the word kilt is invariably described as a type of skirt.

I then checked my trusty Chambers Scots Dictionary (published 1911, Edinburgh, 1986 reprint-no ISBN number) for the definition of kilt, and their were six entries not one of which used the word skirt. The definition for the garment is: Kilt, n. a Hebridean name for home-made garment of any or no colour., Cf Kelt

Therefore, whatever may be the understanding in the rest of the English speaking world, it is not that of people from Scotland who speak Scottish Standard English (SSE), Scots, or Gaelic (or any combination thereof). Confusion and misunderstanding often occurs when people speak and understand different idioms of the same language (SSE) or in the case of Scots, a closely related language to English.

If you grow up with one understanding of a term, and someone else has another you can see how offence may be given or taken. However, As Father Bill stated earlier in the thread, feeling offended is an emotional reaction not a rational (intellectual) one. It can therefore not be considered foolish in and of itself. How one reacts to feelings of being offended can undoubtedly lead to behaviour which on mature reflection we might consider to have been folly. However, to call a person so circumstanced foolish is harsh in the extreme (because you are implicitly calling them a fool). If we are honest, have we not all been less than our wisest best selves on occasion?

[TimButterfield]

Not everyone calling a kilt a skirt has the same intent, and it is foolish to get upset by someone who never intended to offend you.

Too, true. I experienced this just last weekend while wearing a modern kilt (tan got kilt?) and some taupe Vibram FiveFinger Sprints. As my wife and I were exiting a winery, a woman coming in commented on my outfit. The next several seconds went something like this:

Her: "Nice skirt."
Me: "Thanks. Do you like kilts?"
Before she could reply to my query, she noticed my FiveFingers, "It's those shoes. Where are you from?"
Me: "Near Chicago."
Her: "That's hip."

As there was more traffic in both directions, we had to keep moving and the conversation ended as quickly as it began. I've never been called hip before, but her comment certainly did not come across as negative. Some people just may not know or think of the correct term right away. They may settle on the generic term without it being pejorative. In most cases, it may be safe to assume the comment is not negative. No harm is done by trying to remain pleasant. If a person really wants to give insult, they will further clarify their intent.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

There seems to be a double standard happening.May I also say I think this discussion is very worth while.

Scottish ethnicity is strong in my family,and from this comes my definate ideas of what the kilt is,what it looks like,and what it symbolizes to us.The kilt as Scottish people usually percieve it is tied up with long history and a sense of cultural identity and this,understandably,colours how one like myself views it,and feels about it.Whether a garment that a man wears is indeed within what I would recognize as the kilt,or whether it is another form of dressing that I personaly would not recognize as the kilt,is bound to be influenced by my Scottish family background.

I personally have no problem with any man of any background or persuasion wearing any publicly presentable garment that he so wishes,whether it be the kilt as I percieve it in the Scottish influenced sense,or whether it's any other form of unbifurcated male garb.Go for it!Also,I've no problem with pinstriped kilts,I find many of the modern kilts exciting,they look great.But here is one person,me,who is honestly saying that there is a certain line,a sort of a gut felt instinctive line that is generated from my Scottish influenced upbringing that tells me that some garments are in the kilt category,and others are not.

Sorry,lang blether.But here is where the double standard feeling comes in.If it is valid that the Scottish kilt IS a definate symbol of Scottish ethnicity to me,why do some feel that it is so wrong for me to hold definate peronal views as to what I think is the kilt or not?

In this thread,folk have opined that:
>Kilt or skirt, it's nothing more than semantics.I've said not in my book.It carries more meaning for me than that.
>Folk have said they hate seeing my views posted like this,as if somehow I'm beating them down.
>one post seemed to imply that somewhere on this thread is the feeling that only Scottish people or thier kin should wear the Scottish style kilt.Yet a thorough read of this thread without a witch hunt type of attitude befuddling your eyesight clearly reveals no such sentiment has been aired here.
>terms such as 'immature' and 'insecure' or similar have been used to describe one or more of this threads contributors due to what is percieved as divisive views.Views which have been stated in a reasoning manner meant to lead to further understanding of why some feel as they do.These patiently explained views have been called 'pedantic'.

I ask; This(above examples) because I have the honesty to come into a thread that asks "Why do some not like the kilt being called a skirt so much" and reply with candor why,and reason my views through for anyone who is interested?

Am I to feel now that I need to unravel cognitive triggers and teachings of life among Scots and push a new view of what the kilt is into my mind just because some new twist of garment appears that borrows the descriptive term kilt for itself?I am open minded enough to be able to look at other unbifurcated garbs and some I admire,some I personally don't but it's up to the wearer to like them.

Rest assured though,if some don't ring with me that they are what I have been brought up to percieve as the Scottish kilt ,then folk can pout,stamp thier feet and give me all the pelters that they like,I will stay true to my opinion.And I will debate with you,and state my opinion,but blame me if I ever try to imply that you can't keep to yours too!

[Damocles]

why do we some times get offended about are Kilts being called skirts?
it got nothing to do with the kilt it self. i'ts because people often say that as an insult! many men think that to be linked with a woman's identity makes them less masculine.
i have to differ on that opinion personally some of the best people i know are female and are high motivated strong and wonderful. I would be pleased to be linked with any person of that kind of cariter female or male so really the offence is in us. sure the issuer is often trying to insult us but its on us to deal with it in a mature manner. so next time you get mad ask your self why is this making me mad nothing wrong with woman we men need to think about that wouldn't you all say?
Paul

[Moski]

While one's interpretation is by choice and can be controlled by thought, one's emotions are an honest and unplanned reaction, thus offense cannot be criticized, merely the response that can be controlled.

Perfectly reasonable response. It's really importent to look at the intent of the speaker. Did tone or other indicators imply that they meant to be insulting or rude.

I've been a cop for over 21 years and I've been hearing the "donut shop" comments since I came on the job. Some people genuinely think they are being funny. Some are being boorish. Other's are simply being jacka$$es. All are taken with a grain of salt because at some point the intent only classifies the level of irritation, it's all old and you're tired of hearing it. Your internal reaction is automatic, your response is reasoned out, whether it's a sincere "thank you", a gracious correction of verbage, or a verbal smack down for the knobbers.

[Azrobert]

Strange, my son and I proudly wear our kilts and have not had anyone say anything derogatory or insulting to either one of us.
I think it is because people are accepting and respectful, and nothing to do with we are both over 6ft , weigh a combined 500 lbs and carry knives in our socks. )

[Doc Canary]

There have been lots of discussion of the general public being "ignorant" of the correct definition of what a kilt is. I think we all agree that Webster's Dictionary is considered at least one of the more definitive sources of English definitions.
Webster's defines the word kilt as follows:
A knee-length skirt with deep pleats, usually of a tartan wool, worn as part of the dress for men in the Scottish Highlands.
In my humble opinion, this entire "kilt/skirt" controversy is rootednin masculine insecurities. It is well within the realm of imagination and reason to see a kilt as a specific variation of a skirt. One would hope we all would attempt to see and interact with others in the world from a non myopic monolithic point of view. I am sure we all are not as aware of other forms of dress/ coustom/and culture as we probably should be, so it stands to reason we should be as forgiving of the mistakes of others as we would hope they wold be of us.
In closing : A KILT IS A SPECIFIC KIND OF A SKIRT. If you choose to wear a kilt in public, be prepared for comments ranging from glowing complements to cracks about you wearing a skirt. The vast majority of the public will see your choice of dress as a novelty no matter if your garment is pin striped or an ancient tartan hand made of the finnest wool.Fact of life: it is unrealistic and unwise to expect others to be aware/considerate/or care about your personal ancestry (real or perceived ), your right to dress as you please, or your insecurities about your masculinity. If you need some sort of validation for wearing a kilt, let that validation come from YOU. In the long run, it is the only validation that really matters.

[Newfoundlander]

I think I agree with a lot of folk on here that the main issue is intent...

A point was made above that a kilt is only a specific type of skirt, and sensu stricto this is true. But it is also true that it's a garment that has a specific cultural connection that many hold dear (I for one). So really, the type of garment it is almost irrelevant, it's the connection that the garment has to something that you hold personally valuable that is the issue, in my opinion. If the intent is to insult that aspect of the kilt-wearer, than it is fair to take offense it I think.

If someone makes a comment "Nice skirt there laddie" with a sly grin and a twinkle in there eye, than it's obvious that they're just playing around and it's no big deal. I find those instances are almost always followed by another more seriously stated "that looks really sharp" or something like that...

If on the other hand it is clearly meant in an offensive and attacking way, than of course, that's different. Those people would probably attack a hockey jersey if it wasn't they're team too.

I find that if someone insists on being difficult like that. I simply ignore them, as it's not worth my time =)

[Doc Canary]

In my humble opinion, your argument is specious on two major counts.
For what ever reason, many seem unwilling to accept that by definition a kilt is a skirt, so if someone remarks, "Nice Skirt.", they are actual and technically correct in their acessment (personal taste not counting), no matter your interpretation of the comment. If one choosse to ignore the actual definition for what ever reason, their choice
Once again, the subject of offense towards heritage is brought up. I am pretty sure unless you are acctually in Scottland/Ireland or a closely neighboring country, actively informing those around you verbally, or with a Tshirt, or behaving in the most stereotypical manner, those around you most likely do not know (or care) about your heritage. No offense intended, but in today 's hyper cross-pollinated cultures, it is asinine to assume any one wearing a kilt an acoutraments is Scottish or Irish unless ther wearer is in the geographic vicinity of said countries, and probably not even then. I have seen many comments on this forum that it seem that people who are not geographically indigenous to the kilt's original homeland have a greater predilection toward wearing the garment than the natives. Everyone
at the pub, the Highland Festival, and wearing a kilt is doing so for reasons that may include, but not exclusive to issues of heritage. Further more, if heritage is such a strong and important reason to own and wear a kilt, why are all the fine sponsors who have advertisments on this sight not requiring "proof of heritage" prior to selling a product? I would be willing to bet they are more than willing to sell me a kilt in any tartan I choose, no questions asked as long as my credit card clears. That is no slap at these good merchants (several of whom I have patronized.) but an indication that the desire to wear kilts , as and of many other elements of cultures as food and music to articles of clothing have crossed over and become elements of world culture as a whole. That is a good thing in my opinion.
I make these points, not to disrespect anyone's culture or heritage. In fact I would not wear certain tartans out of respect for their culture. I would hope we can come to the realization that the world we live in is and continues to become more multicultural and not monolithic in it's nature and function. Our diversity is our strength. The good things, like kilts, flourish, are shared, and bring us closer together. Let's live by the founding of this forum and allow the kilt in all it's iterations and style of being worn from traditional to steam punk and beyond be a force of brotherhood instead of division.
Who would think a skirt (Yeah, I said it!) could do that.

[Newfoundlander]

In my humble opinion, your argument is specious on two major counts.
The good things, like kilts, flourish, are shared, and bring us closer together. Let's live by the founding of this forum and allow the kilt in all it's iterations and style of being worn from traditional to steam punk and beyond be a force of brotherhood instead of division.

Here, here!