The Scots Who Left

[Gael Ridire]

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH , I understand your view on the Irish kilt, but my experience at games is that the Irish diaspora have no problem with it. Granted most don't know the history of how the Irish kilt came about. But "what's the beef about?," The kilt is the international symbol of being Gaelic/Celtic. All cultures recognize it. How wonderful that the Scottish Highland garment is that symbol! To differentiate between Scot and Irish, the Irish Gaelic League voted to make the kilt be of one color, cool. Doesn't look as nice as tartan, but cool! Fast forward a hundred years or so to today, and tartan setts are being designed for the Irish, Cornish, & Welsh too, not to name a host of other ethnic groups. Just recently on an Irish blog I read of folks wanting to know what their clan tartan was. Another I read said that he wished his Irish clan would pick a color and he didn't care if it was "hot pink." For me, I'd rather have a newly designed tartan. Granted, the history of the kilt belongs to the Highlanders, which should never be forgotten, but I like that the kilt represents the Gael/Celt today and hopefully it will into the future!

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Gael Ridire,

The Irish diaspora have no problem with it?How good of them!
Merely pointing out that to try to connect the kilt and tartans to Irish history and culture is a kid on.

[flyrod6057]

Gael Ridire,

The Irish diaspora have no problem with it?How good of them!
Merely pointing out that to try to connect the kilt and tartans to Irish history and culture is a kid on.

The Irish Celts of antiquity didn't wear kilts. The Irish also didn't wear tartans. For that matter, the Scottish Celts didn't wear tartans either, until 300 or 400 years ago or so, give or take.

Celtic culture isn't dead; it continues to develop today. The Highland Scots, descended from Picts, Irish immigrants and Viking raiders, developed the tartan: a symbol of Scottish heritage. Since it's advent, the tartan, and the kilt have undergone significant changes; they continue today. Millions of Scots, and Irish, have migrated around the world. No longer separated by a small stretch of sea, they're now different Celtic tribes sharing their new lands. The kilt--while always remaining a garment first worn in the Highlands--is no longer restricted to it's humble beginnings as an exclusively Scottish item. Hundreds of years ago, the Irish were probably not wearing self-colored kilts. However, they are today. In 500 years, it'll be a page in Gaelic history. So, while trying to connect kilts and tartans to Irish history may seem like a "kid on" to you, it's actually not. Irish self-colored kilts have been around since the 1800's. There are dozens of registered Irish tartans now. They're here now; they're part of Irish history now.

[Gael Ridire]

Flyrod - Better said then by me! Also in hind sight I shouldn't have said the Irish diaspora didn't have a problem with the kilt. I should re-say those of the Irish diaspora I've talked to have no problem...

By no means do I mean to imply that the Irish wore kilts. It was called the leine, a very long shirt tied at the waist, that many have tried to call a kinda' kilt. From my reading on the subject it was the late 1880s with the Gaelic League seeking to find a national dress, and finding none voted to adopted the kilt in solid color. The idea didn't catch on to well by the Irish and today only dancers and pipers basically wear the kilt. Some Irish-Americans wear the solid kilt, but most want tartan. The late 1990s had a couple mills design Irish tartans (the early designs I do not like) the second designs are better, but... For me I like the Irish National and a few other generic ones. I like tartan better then solid color and for me wearing the Irish tartan honors my Irish ancestors and wearing the kilt honors my Scottish ones. I know, Heaven forbid I'm combining the two cultures, but in my family it has evolved to this.

I concur that this (Irish kilts & tartans) will be a page in the Gaelic/Celtic history 500 years from now. And who knows how the evolving will be then?

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Right so imagine if a league of 'people with a history of living in chilly northern climtes' gets together and votes for the Scottish kilt as a garb not only historicaly worn in winter conditions,but also recognized as an indigenous garb that has survived well into the modern era..which they want in on.

Next thing we've got Eskimo,Finnish,Norse,Russian folk roaming about wearing kilts,designing tartans and saying now this signifies them as well.In 80 to 100 years the tartan kilt is a valid,historicaly acceptable Eskimo/Nordic dress too,and they go about teaching thier weans about the time the 'chilly folks league' voted it in,and so turned another page in the kilts history?Sound feasable to you?

Personaly I don't care if you're a Zulu tribesman and you take a shine to wearing the tartan kilt,so long as you've got the respect to realize not only where it came from historicaly and culturaly,but also what it STILL means to the people of that homeland,and their kin.Enjoy having a taste of the kilt,and enjoy understanding what it means but why this penchant for wanting to change it,by degrees,into some sort of international smorgasboard free for all?

I'm not just setting out to bait people,but lets not have a sort of emperors clothes episode here.Call a spade a spade,the tartan kilt is Scottish.The Irish are a proud people with a long history and deep culture of thier own.Why try to make a dogs breakfast of it all by mixing it all together for some sort of new age 'come one come all' cultural mosh pit.I for one respect the uniquness,the richness of both Scottish and Irish culture too much to understand the need for this.

Honestly,for an open forum discussion on this,would the straight opinion aired earlier be part of the reason?That was,in essence,that the Scottish culture seems to be outstanding as one that still has a strong,recognizable(enviably so?)presence,and the others don't seem as noticable(attractive in a romantic sence?) so Scottish is the popular choice?Could it be that those yearning for connection with a romantic idea of some idealized past, are viewing things with rose tinted glasses of convenience on?

[Gael Ridire]

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH - You raise some excellent points of view. I read not to long ago about a couple of Scots who went to Estonia, opened a pub where they wear their kilt. The local Estonians have taken to this and many are sporting kilts and I believe there is now an Estonian tartan, and there's a tartan of Galacia, Germany, Holland, all the Canadian provinces, several American states, etc. Hey, the ball is rolling, the dominoes are falling, many are wearing the kilt. Now is it for some romantic reason, only the individual knows. But I'm sure this is the reason for many. And true, many cultures don't have a nice national dress/outfit/garment. I think in truth a small few will wear the kilt of the Gaelic/Celtic diaspora. My father isn't one. I also know a few Americans of Scot descent who feel the same way. One of my sons wanted to do his wedding in a kilt. The bride's family said, "HELL NO!" And they are of MacIntosh, in North Carolina!

I will concur that the kilt has a magnetic draw for many. I for one, will always remember from whence the kilt's origin is and it's history. I can understand the view that it should belong to the Scots, but I'm also saying that some of the Gaels/Celts feel that it represents to the world that they are a branch of this ethnic group too. I am of the bent that this evolving is a good thing, and that the tartan sett designed for the various branches is also good. I don't want to see each clan/family surname develop their own tartan (although this is slowly happening) but designs that truly identify the Irish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, etc., or my that's enough!

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Gael Ridire.

I respect your candor,the thoughtfullness in which you approach this discussion.

You say that by wearing the kilt,other folk of gaelic/celtic backgrounds or sympathies can express a sort of solidarity of ethnicity.A good notion,but does one of the foremost symbols of one particular celtic nation have to be slowley claimed by others,and by degrees,attempts made to write new 'pages of history' where other cultures grow in,around and over the kilt untill some will not know whether it is Scottish,Irish,Welsh ,Cornish or any other?

There are many striking and beautiful ways to celebrate what was once a vast empire where the celts reigned surpreme.The flowing,interlacing knotwork art,music that incorporates instruments such as the pipes(not only the great highland bagpipe)fiddle and drum,sports that have ancient lineages that are celtic(hurly,shinty,gaelic football,various tests of strength),Celtic inspired jewelry.Wear and enjoy the kilt but I urge to show respect and give recognition where it is due.The tartan kilt was developed and made into what it is today by Scots in Scotland,not by the Irish,Welsh,Cornish or any other.
If one who is not Scottish or who has mixed background wears it,why should they not be satisfied to say,
"I may not be Scottish,but I love their kilt."
To me it seems a way to possibly 'wear out the welcome' by presumptiously starting to come out with claims by other countries that "it's becoming our kilt too.A new history is being written ,by us ,for the kilt"
There are so many celtic things to share in and celebrate,to teach young ones about,without needing to smudge any of the bright colours together,by not differentiating the unique customs and characteristics of one part of the celtic world from another.The old cultures deserve more than that.

[OC Richard]

Somebody brought up the point earlier, and it's a good point, that most people in the USA (those who are not recent immigrants) are quite mixed genetically, so ethnic self-identity becomes a thing of personal choice.

Someone might think of themselves as Scottish-American, but may be only 1/8th or 1/16th or 1/32nd Scots ancestry. What about the rest of their ancestry, which they choose to underemphasise, or ignore?

There was an article in a local paper about a local man, originally from the south, who recently had his DNA analysed. Though brought up in the south as a 'black' man, in a 'black' family, when his DNA was tested it was found that he has no African blood, but rather is of mixed European, Native American, and Asian descent.

Then there's my brother-in-law, who is of mixed Irish/Swedish/German ancestry, who married a Filipino woman. Their eldest son, at his school's "Culture Day", brought Swedish food to share, though he looks little like what we might expect a Swede to look like. It's a matter of self-indentfying... he might just as well brought corned beef and cabbage, or balut, or what have you.

Go back enough generations and we're all related anyhow. You and I all have Australian Aboriginal DNA, and Japanese DNA, and DNA from every people on earth inside us. So all this to-do about one's ancestry is somewhat meaningless.

[Jock Scot]

----------Wear and enjoy the kilt but I urge to show respect and give recognition where it is due.The tartan kilt was developed and made into what it is today by Scots in Scotland,not by the Irish,Welsh,Cornish or any other.
If one who is not Scottish or who has mixed background wears it,why should they not be satisfied to say,
"I may not be Scottish,but I love their kilt."
To me it seems a way to possibly 'wear out the welcome' by presumptiously starting to come out with claims by other countries that "it's becoming our kilt too.A new history is being written ,by us ,for the kilt"
There are so many celtic things to share in and celebrate,to teach young ones about,without needing to smudge any of the bright colours together,by not differentiating the unique customs and characteristics of one part of the celtic world from another.The old cultures deserve more than that.

What an interesting discussion.

You know I think what you have said above is wise and could be lived with by the "Old School Traditionalists". They know full well that the kilt is worn around the world, so from that point of view to think otherwise is a lost cause and has been for a decades now. And everyone knows it. I think what sticks in the throat of some in Scotland, is the comments of "the kilt is ours now", "never mind the traditions, conventions, aesthetics etc.,we/I can wear it how we like". It is perfectly true there is nothing to stop anyone from thinking/doing that ,but out loud comments like that, well, they don't help and they grate hugely.

Cards on the table type of chats, often let other points of view and there are many, to be seen and explained and with a tad of understanding all round life can run just that we bit smoother for all interested parties. I really and honestly believe that very few of us here wish none other than to enjoy their interest, passion even, in kilts and just get on with life. BUT the air needs clearing every once in a while and there is nothing wrong with that. When all said and done the alternative does not lead to a happy time for any of us.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

O.C Richard,

I must admitt I did not really think that ancestry,but rather different cultures and thier histories was what we were chewing over.We are,as you pointed out,all of the same human race.I guess one way of looking at it though,may be this...
You go to a well recommended Chinese restaurant.It is evident that the owners have spared no expence to lay on fine Chinese artwork,play classical Chinese music tastefuly in the background,and the Chinese food is superb.However,you pull up a chair,chow down on a dish and say
"yeah,it's nice,but it may as well have been a burger and chips,it doesn't matter.It's all just food anyway."

Variety,is the spice of life!Different cultures,all made from a history of various factors,should be respected and appreciated for what they are by us all,I believe.Not to cause divisions,but to have something to show that is special.Far preferable to me that a flattenede out beige world were no distinct characteristics remain to be noted and enjoyed.