The Scots Who Left

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Right so imagine if a league of 'people with a history of living in chilly northern climtes' gets together and votes for the Scottish kilt as a garb not only historicaly worn in winter conditions,but also recognized as an indigenous garb that has survived well into the modern era..which they want in on.

Next thing we've got Eskimo,Finnish,Norse,Russian folk roaming about wearing kilts,designing tartans and saying now this signifies them as well.In 80 to 100 years the tartan kilt is a valid,historicaly acceptable Eskimo/Nordic dress too,and they go about teaching thier weans about the time the 'chilly folks league' voted it in,and so turned another page in the kilts history?Sound feasable to you?

Personaly I don't care if you're a Zulu tribesman and you take a shine to wearing the tartan kilt,so long as you've got the respect to realize not only where it came from historicaly and culturaly,but also what it STILL means to the people of that homeland,and their kin.Enjoy having a taste of the kilt,and enjoy understanding what it means but why this penchant for wanting to change it,by degrees,into some sort of international smorgasboard free for all?

I'm not just setting out to bait people,but lets not have a sort of emperors clothes episode here.Call a spade a spade,the tartan kilt is Scottish.The Irish are a proud people with a long history and deep culture of thier own.Why try to make a dogs breakfast of it all by mixing it all together for some sort of new age 'come one come all' cultural mosh pit.I for one respect the uniquness,the richness of both Scottish and Irish culture too much to understand the need for this.

Honestly,for an open forum discussion on this,would the straight opinion aired earlier be part of the reason?That was,in essence,that the Scottish culture seems to be outstanding as one that still has a strong,recognizable(enviably so?)presence,and the others don't seem as noticable(attractive in a romantic sence?) so Scottish is the popular choice?Could it be that those yearning for connection with a romantic idea of some idealized past, are viewing things with rose tinted glasses of convenience on?

[Gael Ridire]

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH - You raise some excellent points of view. I read not to long ago about a couple of Scots who went to Estonia, opened a pub where they wear their kilt. The local Estonians have taken to this and many are sporting kilts and I believe there is now an Estonian tartan, and there's a tartan of Galacia, Germany, Holland, all the Canadian provinces, several American states, etc. Hey, the ball is rolling, the dominoes are falling, many are wearing the kilt. Now is it for some romantic reason, only the individual knows. But I'm sure this is the reason for many. And true, many cultures don't have a nice national dress/outfit/garment. I think in truth a small few will wear the kilt of the Gaelic/Celtic diaspora. My father isn't one. I also know a few Americans of Scot descent who feel the same way. One of my sons wanted to do his wedding in a kilt. The bride's family said, "HELL NO!" And they are of MacIntosh, in North Carolina!

I will concur that the kilt has a magnetic draw for many. I for one, will always remember from whence the kilt's origin is and it's history. I can understand the view that it should belong to the Scots, but I'm also saying that some of the Gaels/Celts feel that it represents to the world that they are a branch of this ethnic group too. I am of the bent that this evolving is a good thing, and that the tartan sett designed for the various branches is also good. I don't want to see each clan/family surname develop their own tartan (although this is slowly happening) but designs that truly identify the Irish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, etc., or my that's enough!

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Gael Ridire.

I respect your candor,the thoughtfullness in which you approach this discussion.

You say that by wearing the kilt,other folk of gaelic/celtic backgrounds or sympathies can express a sort of solidarity of ethnicity.A good notion,but does one of the foremost symbols of one particular celtic nation have to be slowley claimed by others,and by degrees,attempts made to write new 'pages of history' where other cultures grow in,around and over the kilt untill some will not know whether it is Scottish,Irish,Welsh ,Cornish or any other?

There are many striking and beautiful ways to celebrate what was once a vast empire where the celts reigned surpreme.The flowing,interlacing knotwork art,music that incorporates instruments such as the pipes(not only the great highland bagpipe)fiddle and drum,sports that have ancient lineages that are celtic(hurly,shinty,gaelic football,various tests of strength),Celtic inspired jewelry.Wear and enjoy the kilt but I urge to show respect and give recognition where it is due.The tartan kilt was developed and made into what it is today by Scots in Scotland,not by the Irish,Welsh,Cornish or any other.
If one who is not Scottish or who has mixed background wears it,why should they not be satisfied to say,
"I may not be Scottish,but I love their kilt."
To me it seems a way to possibly 'wear out the welcome' by presumptiously starting to come out with claims by other countries that "it's becoming our kilt too.A new history is being written ,by us ,for the kilt"
There are so many celtic things to share in and celebrate,to teach young ones about,without needing to smudge any of the bright colours together,by not differentiating the unique customs and characteristics of one part of the celtic world from another.The old cultures deserve more than that.

[OC Richard]

Somebody brought up the point earlier, and it's a good point, that most people in the USA (those who are not recent immigrants) are quite mixed genetically, so ethnic self-identity becomes a thing of personal choice.

Someone might think of themselves as Scottish-American, but may be only 1/8th or 1/16th or 1/32nd Scots ancestry. What about the rest of their ancestry, which they choose to underemphasise, or ignore?

There was an article in a local paper about a local man, originally from the south, who recently had his DNA analysed. Though brought up in the south as a 'black' man, in a 'black' family, when his DNA was tested it was found that he has no African blood, but rather is of mixed European, Native American, and Asian descent.

Then there's my brother-in-law, who is of mixed Irish/Swedish/German ancestry, who married a Filipino woman. Their eldest son, at his school's "Culture Day", brought Swedish food to share, though he looks little like what we might expect a Swede to look like. It's a matter of self-indentfying... he might just as well brought corned beef and cabbage, or balut, or what have you.

Go back enough generations and we're all related anyhow. You and I all have Australian Aboriginal DNA, and Japanese DNA, and DNA from every people on earth inside us. So all this to-do about one's ancestry is somewhat meaningless.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

O.C Richard,

I must admitt I did not really think that ancestry,but rather different cultures and thier histories was what we were chewing over.We are,as you pointed out,all of the same human race.I guess one way of looking at it though,may be this...
You go to a well recommended Chinese restaurant.It is evident that the owners have spared no expence to lay on fine Chinese artwork,play classical Chinese music tastefuly in the background,and the Chinese food is superb.However,you pull up a chair,chow down on a dish and say
"yeah,it's nice,but it may as well have been a burger and chips,it doesn't matter.It's all just food anyway."

Variety,is the spice of life!Different cultures,all made from a history of various factors,should be respected and appreciated for what they are by us all,I believe.Not to cause divisions,but to have something to show that is special.Far preferable to me that a flattenede out beige world were no distinct characteristics remain to be noted and enjoyed.

[AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH]

Jock Scot,
I agree that to lay the cards out is good,yes I really feel that the fellows that can come at a frank and honest discussion,from opposite sides as it were,and as you say, learn a bit more from each other ,only betters us all.

[MacBean]

I must admitt I did not really think that ancestry,but rather different cultures and thier histories was what we were chewing over. We are,as you pointed out,all of the same human race.

My earlier post raised the possibility that ancestry (genetics) may be of far, far greater importance than most of us realize (and I speak as a professional scientist). There has been an active dispute for years on whether nature (genetics or ancestry) or nurture (evironment) determine personality and such. I've always sided with nurture, but the evidence leans increasingly towards nature (genetics) being paramount.

Take the concept of trying to find one's "roots". Where would this come from? Is it possible that it is encoded as part of creating personal identity (and thus also mate selection)? I have to say that I think that ancestry may be very much a part of some folks' desire to kilt. No matter that they are quarter Russian, and an eighth Indonesian.

For example, our concept of Germans being hyper punctual; is that really just culture? A tiny change in brain chemistry might account for it.

[Bugbear]

My earlier post raised the possibility that ancestry (genetics) may be of far, far greater importance than most of us realize (and I speak as a professional scientist). There has been an active dispute for years on whether nature (genetics or ancestry) or nurture (evironment) determine personality and such. I've always sided with nurture, but the evidence leans increasingly towards nature (genetics) being paramount.

Take the concept of trying to find one's "roots". Where would this come from? Is it possible that it is encoded as part of creating personal identity (and thus also mate selection)? I have to say that I think that ancestry may be very much a part of some folks' desire to kilt. No matter that they are quarter Russian, and an eighth Indonesian.

For example, our concept of Germans being hyper punctual; is that really just culture? A tiny change in brain chemistry might account for it.

That can be very difficult to understand: long chain of links between genetics and personality.

Might ask CDNSushi, he has degrees in both psychology and genetics, if I remember correctly.

[Jock Scot]

----------Wear and enjoy the kilt but I urge to show respect and give recognition where it is due.The tartan kilt was developed and made into what it is today by Scots in Scotland,not by the Irish,Welsh,Cornish or any other.
If one who is not Scottish or who has mixed background wears it,why should they not be satisfied to say,
"I may not be Scottish,but I love their kilt."
To me it seems a way to possibly 'wear out the welcome' by presumptiously starting to come out with claims by other countries that "it's becoming our kilt too.A new history is being written ,by us ,for the kilt"
There are so many celtic things to share in and celebrate,to teach young ones about,without needing to smudge any of the bright colours together,by not differentiating the unique customs and characteristics of one part of the celtic world from another.The old cultures deserve more than that.

What an interesting discussion.

You know I think what you have said above is wise and could be lived with by the "Old School Traditionalists". They know full well that the kilt is worn around the world, so from that point of view to think otherwise is a lost cause and has been for a decades now. And everyone knows it. I think what sticks in the throat of some in Scotland, is the comments of "the kilt is ours now", "never mind the traditions, conventions, aesthetics etc.,we/I can wear it how we like". It is perfectly true there is nothing to stop anyone from thinking/doing that ,but out loud comments like that, well, they don't help and they grate hugely.

Cards on the table type of chats, often let other points of view and there are many, to be seen and explained and with a tad of understanding all round life can run just that we bit smoother for all interested parties. I really and honestly believe that very few of us here wish none other than to enjoy their interest, passion even, in kilts and just get on with life. BUT the air needs clearing every once in a while and there is nothing wrong with that. When all said and done the alternative does not lead to a happy time for any of us.

[Downunder Kilt]

What an interesting discussion.

You know I think what you have said above is wise and could be lived with by the "Old School Traditionalists". They know full well that the kilt is worn around the world, so from that point of view to think otherwise is a lost cause and has been for a decades now. And everyone knows it. I think what sticks in the throat of some in Scotland, is the comments of "the kilt is ours now", "never mind the traditions, conventions, aesthetics etc.,we/I can wear it how we like". It is perfectly true there is nothing to stop anyone from thinking/doing that ,but out loud comments like that, well, they don't help and they grate hugely.

Jock, I have long suspected that what you have said above is the case. It is not so much that the kilt is worn outwith Scotland, in particular the Highlands, it's the attitude of how it's worn, displayed by some. The comments of, I live here and I'll wear it how I want to, grate on me too.

Too many people play on the theme that it is their ancestry, but then ignore the traditions that go with that ancestry

AN COIGREACH ALBANNACH I would have quoted you too in regards to Jocks post by can't figure out how to do the double quote