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Thread: Kilt shirts

  1. #61
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    Final word (I hope) on Bear-v-Newsome.

    Newsome wrote "Most of our ideas about the kilt are based on myth, legend, misconceptions, and (worse yet) Hollywood."

    He used as examples of myths, legends, misconceptions and Hollywood "Ask an Irishman, and he will tell you that the kilt was actually an ancient garment from Ireland and only later brought into Scotland by migrating Gaels, and moreover the Irish also invented the bagpipes, whisky, and whatever else you care to name. Ask an Englishman and he will tell you how Thomas Rawlinson, an English native, invented the kilt in the 18th century."

    If you then examine this line of argument, was the kilt an ancient garment of Ireland brought to Scotland by migrating Gaels? There is virtually unanimous agreement amongst researchers that this is not true, so it's a myth or legend. Did the Irish invent whisky and bagpipes? Myth or legend again. Did Rawlinson invent the little kilt? If you've been following the line of argument the answer is obvious!

    Whilst Bear readily admits he is no expert on the history of the kilt, he is nevertheless prepared to question the knowledge of someone who is the curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum in Franklin, NC, and rather than the rabid Scottish nationalist Bear suggested in an earlier post, is actually an American whose ENGLISH ancestors emigrated to America in 1812!!

    Nuff said.

  2. #62
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    let me quote homer again,"BORING"
    NEXT!

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Whilst Bear readily admits he is no expert on the history of the kilt, he is nevertheless prepared to question the knowledge of someone who is the curator of the Scottish Tartans Museum in Franklin, NC, and rather than the rabid Scottish nationalist Bear suggested in an earlier post, is actually an American whose ENGLISH ancestors emigrated to America in 1812!!

    Nuff said.
    Does this mean that you are basing your argument on the writings of an American author whose family left British soil nearly 200 years ago?

    Personally I don't care who invented the kilt. You could say the idea may have been stolen from the vikings. I have Scottish ancestory and am proud that the kilt is associated with Scotland. However as someone else pointed out, none of us were there. Suprisingly today's "scholars" weren't there either.

    No writings should ever be considered unbiased, and their word should never be considered as gold.

  4. #64
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    It was the Chinese who invented the kilt.

  5. #65
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    Just to show that there are more than one author's opinion on kilts and the origin of tartans, here is another take on the article given by Robbie.

    However, many aspects of tartan and Highland dress are controversial and the subject is surrounded by a number of myths. For example, the word 'tartan', now associated by most people with the precisely patterned, intricately cross-barred and multicoloured cloth, is itself a matter for argument. Some authorities claim it derives from the IrishScots words tuar and tan - meaning 'colour' and 'district' respectively. There is also a possibility that the word derives from a Middle French word, tiretaine, which referred to a quality of material, of a thin, coarse linen and wool mixture, while an Old Spanish word of similar root, tartana, which means 'shiver', and refers to a very fine, quality cloth, has been proposed as yet another possible source. The Gaelic word for tartan is breacan, meaning 'chequered', 'variegated' or 'speckled'.

    Not everyone believes the first story they hear, especially if they didn't witness it first hand.

  6. #66
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    And to support Robbie's point of view a bit, with more of a common sense over snobbery approach, here is another verison of the story.

    The shortening of thefeileadh mor to a form rnughly resembling that of the modern kilt is normally said to have begun around 1725. One story often told is that of a Glengarry furnace-master from England who felt that the long plaid of the Highlander was an industrial hazard and should be cut down. Although this anecdote has been widely publicised, it seems highly unlikely that an entire form of Highland dress would be drastically changed almost overnight to accommodate the views of a single incomer. In spite of a shortage of evidence, it seems a far more likely explanation that the little kilt evolved simply as a matter of convenience and as the availability of other clothing, such as jackets, jerkins and tunics, increased.

    Oh yeah, I don't care for the kilt (jacobite,highland,eetc) style shirts. If you're just out casually a golf shirt, rugby shirt, or sweater will look just as nice (if not more).

    Love the Lisa and Homer quote

    hmmm, donuts.....

  7. #67
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    ok,ok, next subject!

  8. #68
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    Surely the whole point of forums such as this is to encourage a transfer of information together with an exchange of views and healthy debate on matters where opinions differ, but we should be able to argue the merits of the various points of view without descending to the level of making it personal.

    In this respect, I have just re-read my earlier posting and have realised that it could be misread as some form of personal criticism of Bear. I do hope he has not taken it this way, and if he has I apologise most sincerely for any bad phraseology on my part which could lead to such a misunderstanding.

  9. #69
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    Robbie wrote.
    Surely the whole point of forums such as this is to encourage a transfer of information together with an exchange of views and healthy debate on matters where opinions differ, but we should be able to argue the merits of the various points of view without descending to the level of making it personal.

    In this respect, I have just re-read my earlier posting and have realised that it could be misread as some form of personal criticism of Bear. I do hope he has not taken it this way, and if he has I apologise most sincerely for any bad phraseology on my part which could lead to such a misunderstanding
    Hi Robbie,
    you'll be surprised to learn that I agree with you, (remember kilt pin placement). I think we've got a good thing going on here and having read posts by most of the members I believe all here are committed to respecting each other opinions. It is important that we don't misunderstand, as is all to easy to do, and become personally affronted. Quick apologies and a slightly thicker skin will be useful tools, but we do need to recognise that we will diagree but hopefully without animosity, and with humour.
    Cheers Rhino
    PS I did have you down as a crusty old Scot
    now I find you're a crusty old American

  10. #70
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    Robbie - Scottish myth or legend?

    Robbie, I'm totally confused. Where exactly are you and what are your roots. I thought you were a Scot living in Scotland, but there are suggestions you are, infact, a US citizen with English roots.

    Put me out of my misery - please.

    BTW - I'm all for healthy debate, but let's not get too forthright about our views. We are afterall all fans of the kilt wherever its roots lie. I for one am very glad of the Scottish connection, living so close to the border as I do. Makes my life a lot easier.

    Al

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