Dress Codes

[Tobus]

What is a nationality? Is it defined by paperwork and politics?

Where does ethnicity fit it? Is heritage part of nationality?

For me, identity trumps -- and yet is formed by -- nationality, ethnicity, heritage, culture, and education.

I find even the idea of a nation to be somewhat problematic because it assumes a stable geo-political body that is actually quite flexible. Furthermore, nations are rarely culturally homogeneous. Borders exist on maps but are not so clear in lived experience, and a passport can define a nationality that does not entirely reflect one's identity. "National attire" is therefor a somewhat hollow term because the meaning of nationality is still, in many cases, debatable.

Hopefully this discussion doesn't cross over into the political arena, but I quite agree. Culture, heritage, ethnicity, and plain old "identity" should never be defined by political borders which are drawn by strangers who, in most cases, have never even been to the actual place where they drew the line on the map. I would hope that as humankind moves forward towards a better future, we can leave such "nationalistic" garbage behind us. For the sake of cultural identity and defining who we are, at least.

America has long been known as the 'melting pot', but it's fair to say that we no longer hold that title alone. The UK as well as much of Europe has been thoroughly infiltrated (not using that term as a negative) by other cultures. And the UK more than anyone else has spread its own culture around the globe. The idea of a "national identity" or "national dress" being restricted within political borders at this point is rather futile. That ship has sailed (literally). It's too late.

Scottish culture was exported just like anything else. And Scottish (or more specifically, Highland) dress was exported right along with it. It is no longer just the national costume of Scotland. It belongs everywhere that Scots settled. I can certainly understand why some Scots might not like that idea, or want to keep it distinctly Scottish, but it would only be wishful thinking. And it would be an insult to all the Scots and their descendants who took it with them.

It should also be said that the adoption of the kilt as the "Scottish national costume" or "national dress" is a recent development. And it came WAY after our ancestors had already taken it with them to the New World. The proverbial cat was already out of the bag by the time they decided to claim it as only theirs.

To be blunt: the kilt is cultural dress. Culture follows people who emigrate. They and their descendants have every bit as much right to that culture as those who stayed.

[Jock Scot]

I think we are right on topic Peter, but national attire appears to be a more contentious dress code than even "formal" or "semi-formal"

What is a nationality? Is it defined by paperwork and politics?

Where does ethnicity fit it? Is heritage part of nationality?

For me, identity trumps -- and yet is formed by -- nationality, ethnicity, heritage, culture, and education.

I find even the idea of a nation to be somewhat problematic because it assumes a stable geo-political body that is actually quite flexible. Furthermore, nations are rarely culturally homogeneous. Borders exist on maps but are not so clear in lived experience, and a passport can define a nationality that does not entirely reflect one's identity. "National attire" is therefor a somewhat hollow term because the meaning of nationality is still, in many cases, debatable.

-----------------------

Jock Scot, I apologize for any offence I may have caused you. Rest assured that I wore the kilt well, even if I blurred the lines of what national attire might be...

An apology is not necessary my dear chap, but let me explain my position.

I am quite sure that you wear your kilt attire very well and whilst I can quite see that in this modern day and age the "National" edges are indeed blurring. However you are a Canadian, you are not a Scot. You cannot have it both ways. No doubt you pay your taxes in Canada, you presumably hold a Canadian passport, you could, if you wish to, join the Canadian services, etc,etc, so yes I cannot see how you can use the invitation wording as an excuse to wear Scots National attire when you plainly are not a Scot. A Canadian with Scots roots no doubt, but you are plainly a Canadian.

Right or not, national boundaries still exist and like it or not National pride still needs respect and in this case I am afraid, I don't consider that it has. Is the earth going to stop spinning over it? No,of course not.

As I have said, I think most, not all, Scots are happy these days for whoever and whichever Nation to wear the kilt , even traditional Highland attire if you so choose---- APART from claiming its your national attire-----which it is not!

[Mike_Oettle]

Glad to know, CMcG, that you are in China to brush up your Cantonese.
The city I live in, Port Elizabeth, has long given up its claim to have the largest Chinese population in South Africa (that honour belongs to Johannesburg), but it remains the most Chinese city in South Africa.
It has a community that is slightly more Moy Yeanese than Cantonese, but most of the city’s Chinese have their roots in Guangdong (or Kwangtung, as I prefer to write it).
I find it disturbing that both mainland China and Taiwan have adopted the policy of annihilating the regional dialects (which are more distinct from each other than the Romance languages), and welcome any attempt to shore up the dialects.
Not that I have learned to speak any form of Chinese, but I do have a soft spot for the south of that country.
Regards,
Mike

[davidg]

As I have said, I think most, not all, Scots are happy these days for whoever and whichever Nation to wear the kilt , even traditional Highland attire if you so choose---- APART from claiming its your national attire-----which it is not!

I find it difficult to agree with your last four words Jock, although I fully accept there are some Scots who do think this way

Would you apply the same criteria to those in our own country who have been born here, sometimes second and third generation Scots, born of parents from India or Pakistan. Would you say that they had no right to claim that saris etc are not their national attire and they are not Asians?

It is, surely, a cultural phenomenon that some fully integrate and adopt their new "nationality" whilst others never do. There are Chinese Americans, Irish Americans, African Americans and, why not, Scots Americans. I suspect that if I had been cleared from the Highlands and shipped off to America I might just have taken my customs, and my national dress, with me and continued to claim it as my own, and handed that down through the generations. I really do not think those of us left behind can deny them that right because of artificial national boundaries

[Jock Scot]

I find it difficult to agree with your last four words Jock, although I fully accept there are some Scots who do think this way

Would you apply the same criteria to those in our own country who have been born here, sometimes second and third generation Scots, born of parents from India or Pakistan. Would you say that they had no right to claim that saris etc are not their national attire and they are not Asians?

It is, surely, a cultural phenomenon that some fully integrate and adopt their new "nationality" whilst others never do. There are Chinese Americans, Irish Americans, African Americans and, why not, Scots Americans. I suspect that if I had been cleared from the Highlands and shipped off to America I might just have taken my customs, and my national dress, with me and continued to claim it as my own, and handed that down through the generations. I really do not think those of us left behind can deny them that right because of artificial national boundaries

In my pedigree I have many non Scots genes lurking in my veins and I do not forget them , but I most certainly do not consider that they need celebrating in any major way and most certainly I would not consider wearing their national attire. Perhaps enough "time" has passed for those genes not to pull too hard? It looks as though we shall have to agree to disagree, I am afraid.

In passing, if my ancestors had been treated as badly as those Scots who were dispossed of everything including their dignity, I would be damned if I would want anything to do with my "home " country. Nothing in this world would induce me to hark back to those dreadful times. The fact that people do, never ceases to amaze me.

[Bugbear]

Whoa, that's going down a path of which almost all of us, especially me, are unqualified to speak authoritatively: role of genes in culture.

[kilted scholar]

I am quite sure that you wear your kilt attire very well and whilst I can quite see that in this modern day and age the "National" edges are indeed blurring. However you are a Canadian, you are not a Scot.

As I have said, I think most, not all, Scots are happy these days for whoever and whichever Nation to wear the kilt , even traditional Highland attire if you so choose---- APART from claiming its your national attire-----which it is not!

However, according to post #42 CMcG was acknowledging that he is a Canadian and that Scots customs and dress are recognized in Canada, including by the government, as appropriate to Canadians; Scots in effect founded the country, more than any other group. As other posters have commented or implied, the world is a more complex place in 2011 than in 1911 or even 1961.

On an allied front it astonishes me that so many Scots, in contrast to people of many other cultures, are so reluctant to wear their national dress. It seems that those of more senior years tend to refrain from wearing the kilt outside Scotland or even below the Highland line. Is this a fear factor, I wonder? Does it come from a national inferiority complex? Times have changed in recent years and Scotland has developed a more self-confident note; I stand to be corrected but it seems to me that this widespread attitude is out of place with our rapidly changing times.

[Jock Scot]

However, according to post #42 CMcG was acknowledging that he is a Canadian and that Scots customs and dress are recognized in Canada, including by the government, as appropriate to Canadians; Scots in effect founded the country, more than any other group. As other posters have commented or implied, the world is a more complex place in 2011 than in 1911 or even 1961.

On an allied front it astonishes me that so many Scots, in contrast to people of many other cultures, are so reluctant to wear their national dress. It seems that those of more senior years tend to refrain from wearing the kilt outside Scotland or even below the Highland line. Is this a fear factor, I wonder? Does it come from a national inferiority complex? Times have changed in recent years and Scotland has developed a more self-confident note; I stand to be corrected but it seems to me that this widespread attitude is out of place with our rapidly changing times.

I rather think the French had a fair bit of an imput into building Canada too. No doubt many other countries chipped in too, including Wales and England.

I think many misunderstand why the Scots don't wear the kilt more often. Would you wear your one and only and not cheap kilt to a steel workshop? On a trawler? On a farm? Building site? To name a just few jobs. No you would not and no doubt the same would hold true in any other country too. Don't forget the cheap kilt option has only been open to us for a wee while. So it is hardly surprising that the kilt is kept for special occasions. It seems, in spite of the rest of the world's wishes and diappointment, we like it that way.

Whith the greatest of respect, Scotland is far from perfect(see another thread going at the moment), but who the dickens are these people outside Scotland who think they have the right to comment on what and how we in Scotland do things? Thank goodness we live in a free world where we ----the Scots in this case-----are quite capable of deciding for ourselves-----even if we take the wrong route on occasion!

[Tobus]

In my pedigree I have many non Scots genes lurking in my veins and I do not forget them , but I most certainly do not consider that they need celebrating in any major way and most certainly I would not consider wearing their national attire. Perhaps enough "time" has passed for those genes not to pull too hard? It looks as though we shall have to agree to disagree, I am afraid.

In passing, if my ancestors had been treated as badly as those Scots who were dispossed of everything including their dignity, I would be damned if I would want anything to do with my "home " country. Nothing in this world would induce me to hark back to those dreadful times. The fact that people do, never ceases to amaze me.

That is how you look at your ancestry, and that's your prerogative. But others see their ancestry differently, and perhaps with a bit different perspective.

It seems odd that you would want to completely disregard the "home country" if your ancestors had been pushed out. That mentality seems to be completely opposite to what virtually every culture that has actually been kicked out of its home country has done. The Irish emigrants, for example, have a strong love for their ancestral homeland, even though most of them left out of sheer desperation. They do not look back at Ireland as a place of horror, to be forgotten for all eternity. They look back on it with love, as the place that made them. The same goes with the Scottish diaspora. And Germans. And French. And Poles. And Russians. And a lot of Africans. And Chinese. The list goes on and on.

There's really nothing surprising about Scottish descendants being interested in where they came from, or wanting to re-identify with that culture. In fact, it's been that way since the day their ancestors left. It would be downright weird if they didn't! I'm not sure why any Scot would find this amazing.

Our ancestors made us who we are. Why on Earth would we want to forget them, their culture, and their way of life?

[JSFMACLJR]

Our ancestors made us who we are. Why on Earth would we want to forget them, their culture, and their way of life?

Indeed they did, but at issue here is national identity vs. cultural identity. I am fortunate enough to be a citizen of two countries: Canada and the USA. I also can claim to be a British Subject. My forebearers are almost all Scots. When asked to wear "national dress" though, I would have to wear the dress of the countries of which I am a citizen ( whatever they might be for these two countries! ). I find it very odd indeed that people who are not citizens of a country would wear the national dress of that country, mis-representing themselves as nationals of that country. I fully support what Jock Scot is saying here. If I am attending an event at which "national dress" is warranted, I would wear a suit. If it were an event asking guests to come in the dress of their ancestors or cultural, ethnic group, then the kilt would be a choice.