Surprise with the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band Tartan

[Mark Stephenson]

Re Seanachie's comment: " Is there a way to get a DEFINITIVE answer to this question? I have been burned once on getting the wrong tartan and certainly would love knowing the real answer." I must agree with Mookien's response. I think there is enough information and there are enough kilts out there that one can simply choose the tartan he/she prefers. There may be another factor to consider when making your choice - preferred weight of the fabric. Isn't the Strathmore USAF-Unofficial woven in 11 oz weight? (Please correct me if I am mistaken about this.)
I also agree with previous comments about weavers' creative license to change tartans. That's just a fact of life for us. In my own case, one of my tartans is the MacTavish Modern which I have in Lochcarron 16 oz. I ordered a fly plaid about a year after getting my kilt, and it matched perfectly. My kilt is a very good match to other MacTavish Clan folks who also have Lochcarron 16 oz MacTavish Modern. However, we all know that we can't count on tartans woven from different runs matching exactly, nor can we count on the same tartan woven in different weights to match. At the same time I ordered my MacTavish Modern kilt, my wife ordered a skirt and sash woven in MacTavish Modern in Lochcarron's 11 oz fabric. Her tartan is noticeably different. The set is different and the blues are different colors. Yet both are MacTavish Modern from the same mill. So, again, I say it boils down to getting the tartan you prefer. Until the USAF recognizes an "official" tartan, it's all a moot question. Even if that ever happens, those of us with existing kilts will have tartans that can proudly be worn as a representation of what was used in a given period of history. If the USAF ever does authorize an official tartan, and it differs from what I have, if it bugs me enough, I'll just have to get another kilt... throw me in that briar patch! <grin>

[mookien]

Barb: In post #28 I wrote, ...

"I inserted some information that I recently obtained on the "USAFR PB" (what I call the Lady Jane, for the sake of brevity) ..."

I use "Lady Jane" simply as an abbreviation. It is easier for me to think and type "Lady Jane" than the cumbersome "USAFRPB", or the even more cumbersome "US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band".

I'm sorry for any confusion that may have caused.

You are correct. There is no registered Lady Jane tartan. But, if in the "Keywords:" search field of the SRT one enters "Lady Jane" or "lady jane", you are taken to the US Air Force Reserves Pipe Band tartan. Also, in the Registration notes is written, "Originally called the Lady Jane of St. Cirus, ...".

From your post it seems that your weaver simply made a mistake. Perhaps the weaver regards the two different (but similar) tartans as one and the same. I would hope not, because they have two distinct threadcounts, but in the name of "artistic license" maybe that's not so important (to the weavers, anyway).

[mookien]

Mark: Yes, Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) tartan, which may be seen at

http://www.strathmorewoollen.co.uk/m...&cat=10&page=6

is woven for stock using their 11 1/2 oz. (T7) cloth.

According to their "Stock Fabric Range" page, they will weave heavyweight cloth, but "it is available to order, in quantities of 50 metres or above, in the same range of tartans as the W60 Quality range."

While that might be fine for a pipe band or a large purveyor of kilts, it precludes most individual orders. And, of course, that completely excludes the US Air Force (Not Official), because it is not in the W60 Quality range. But, it can't hurt to contact Strathmore and make inquiries. They were most gracious and helpful to me.

What you wrote at the end of your comment rings true to me, especially, "those of us with existing kilts will have tartans that can proudly be worn as a representation of what was used in a given period of history".

My brother would be proud and thrilled to wear either the Lady Jane or the US Air Force (Not Official).

John

[Barb T]

From your post it seems that your weaver simply made a mistake. Perhaps the weaver regards the two different (but similar) tartans as one and the same. I would hope not, because they have two distinct threadcounts, but in the name of "artistic license" maybe that's not so important (to the weavers, anyway).

???I don't follow at all. The folks who wove the tartan for me didn't make a mistake - they wove exactly what is registered as tartan 2437, which is listed as the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan as listed in the Registry. There is no other tartan in the Registry that is listed as USAF Reserve Pipe Band, so I don't know what you mean by "two distinct thread counts" - if someone looked up the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan in the Registry, they would find _only one sett_. So, my weaver didn't make a mistake. They wove exactly what the Registry says they should weave for that tartan.

[mookien]

Barb: In your post #40 you wrote ...

"If you asked a weaver to look up the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan in the Registry and weave you a length, you would get the following:

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=4180

What started this in the first place is that is exactly what I did. And I got a length of tartan that does not match what the USAF Reserve Pipe Band wears in their uniform, as you can see in what Carolyn is wearing in my previous post. So, that's where the mystery lies."

I'm not understanding how this is not a weaver's mistake. The way I interpret your comment above is that you asked a weaver to weave the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan, but instead they sent you Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) cloth. That seems to qualify as a mistake to me. What am I missing?

------------------------------

In your post #44 you wrote ...

'... so I don't know what you mean by "two distinct thread counts" - ...'

I mean literally that. The USAF RPB tartan has one threadcount given by the SRT as

Threadcount: AL30RB4RB6AL68RB16DR6K40RY6RB88

Pallet: K=101010BLACK;DR=880000DARK RED;FSB=2474E8FS BLUE;DY=E8C000GOLD;RB=1C0070ROYAL BLUE;AL=48A4C0ANDERSON BLUE;RY=BC8C00DARK GOLD;

while Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) threadcount is different.

In Strathmore's the width between the two Royal Blue overstripes is 14, but it is 30 in the USAF RPB tartan. In addition Strathmore's tartan is completely absent the two Royal Blue vertical bands outside of the red overstripes that appear in the USAF RPB as you have so clearly illustrated.

Finally, I suspect that the sett size of both tartans is not the same, though I cannot state that with complete certitude. I would guess that Strathmore's is a bit smaller given the absence of the Royal Blue bands and the narrower space between the double blue overstripes.

The evidence strongly suggests that we are dealing with two different tartans here, and folks just have to be careful to distinguish between the two.

John

[Barb T]

\

"If you asked a weaver to look up the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan in the Registry and weave you a length, you would get the following:

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar....aspx?ref=4180

What started this in the first place is that is exactly what I did. And I got a length of tartan that does not match what the USAF Reserve Pipe Band wears in their uniform, as you can see in what Carolyn is wearing in my previous post. So, that's where the mystery lies."

I'm not understanding how this is not a weaver's mistake. The way I interpret your comment above is that you asked a weaver to weave the US Air Force Reserve Pipe Band tartan, but instead they sent you Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) cloth. That seems to qualify as a mistake to me. What am I missing?

I have to say that I'm about at the stage of beating my head on the desk.

1) I asked the weaver to weave the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan. The weaver did exactly that. I got a length of tartan that _absolutely perfectly matches_ the one listed in the Registry. There were no mistakes.

2) What surprised me was that this perfect, no-errors length of tartan (which does, in fact, match what is in the Registry) does _not_ match what Strathmore is currently weaving as USAF tartan. In other words, what Strathmore is weaving does not match what is currently registered as having been adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe Band. And the tartan in the current USAF Reserve Pipe Band uniforms (which was custom woven in 16 oz by Strathmore - it's not their stock 10 0z) _does not_ match what is in the Registry as the tartan adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe Band either.

3) In fact, the only piece of tartan in this whole discussion that does, actually, perfectly match the sett in the Registry of Scottish tartans is the one that I had custom woven last summer.

I don't honestly know how I can be any clearer than that. Or am I losing my mind and no one understands what I'm saying??

[Barb T]

'... so I don't know what you mean by "two distinct thread counts" - ...'

I mean literally that. The USAF RPB tartan has one threadcount given by the SRT as

Threadcount: AL30RB4RB6AL68RB16DR6K40RY6RB88

Pallet: K=101010BLACK;DR=880000DARK RED;FSB=2474E8FS BLUE;DY=E8C000GOLD;RB=1C0070ROYAL BLUE;AL=48A4C0ANDERSON BLUE;RY=BC8C00DARK GOLD;

while Strathmore's US Air Force (Not Official) threadcount is different.

In Strathmore's the width between the two Royal Blue overstripes is 14, but it is 30 in the USAF RPB tartan. In addition Strathmore's tartan is completely absent the two Royal Blue vertical bands outside of the red overstripes that appear in the USAF RPB as you have so clearly illustrated.

Well, yes, of course. That's what I pointed out on the first page. But there is only one _official_ thread count here - the one that's in the Registry. Anyone can weave any thread count they want and call it anything they want (as long as they aren't poaching on an existing registered tartan). Sure these are two different tartans. Yes, the one that Strathmore is weaving is not in the Registry. It still doesn't answer the question of why Strathmore has been weaving a tartan for the uniforms of the USAF Reserve Pipe Band that does not match the one that is registered as the one that the Band adopted. It was an error somewhere along the line - either it was recorded wrong or the first loom was warped wrong and the error has persisted. Has to be one or the other.

How much latitude would you accept from a weaver? Size of sett, sure. Shade of colors, sure. Proportions of colors? Not so much, although thread count will enter in here, particularly when the sett has to be shrunk down for a fine weave. But changing this too much will change the look of a tartan. Elements of the tartan? I would hope not, actually. I've seen pseudo Black Watch woven as an ABAB tartan, instead of the official ABAC design. In the latter, two pair of black stripes alternate in one navy block (block B) with one pair in the next navy block (block C). In the pseudo Black Watch that I saw, all navy blocks had a single pair of stripes. Would that be acceptable to someone who ordered Black Watch at $50 a yard? I hope not. I would want the real Black Watch. Just my opinion. If I ask for a custom weave on behalf of a client, I expect the weaver to use the Registry sett, not fiddle around adding or subtracting color elements.

[mookien]

Barb: I don't recall you writing until now that the weaver you ordered the USAF RPB from was actually Strathmore. Please point out to me where you mentioned that earlier, so I can see where/how I missed it, and read more carefully in the future. I'm sorry if I missed that salient point. No wonder we seemed to be on different wavelengths.

That makes a huge difference in the discussion. If you asked Strathmore to custom weave the USAF RPB tartan and they sent you the US Air Force (Not Official) tartan, then that is either a mistake, or an indication that Strathmore regards them as one and the same tartan (which we both mentioned, as at least a possibility, in earlier posts). That would be consistent with the US Air Force (Not Official) tartan not being registered. I like to think that is not possible with tartans that have different threadcounts, but what do I know?!

That, of course, and as you have pointed out, raises the difficult question of how much can a weaver modify a tartan and it still be regarded as the same tartan. I have little experience/knowledge in that area so I cannot comment substantively on that question.

What it does bring to mind is the advice that has often been given on the blog - before you order the cloth, get a swatch so you can see exactly what you are ordering. It's slower, but surer.

I'm glad we had this little exchange - brief, but to the point. I hope our next one is lengthier and involves a more complicated subject.

Slainte!

John

[seanachie]

I have to say that I'm about at the stage of beating my head on the desk.

1) I asked the weaver to weave the USAF Reserve Pipe Band tartan. The weaver did exactly that. I got a length of tartan that _absolutely perfectly matches_ the one listed in the Registry. There were no mistakes.

2) What surprised me was that this perfect, no-errors length of tartan (which does, in fact, match what is in the Registry) does _not_ match what Strathmore is currently weaving as USAF tartan. In other words, what Strathmore is weaving does not match what is currently registered as having been adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe Band. And the tartan in the current USAF Reserve Pipe Band uniforms (which was custom woven in 16 oz by Strathmore - it's not their stock 10 0z) _does not_ match what is in the Registry as the tartan adopted by the USAF Reserve Pipe Band either.

3) In fact, the only piece of tartan in this whole discussion that does, actually, perfectly match the sett in the Registry of Scottish tartans is the one that I had custom woven last summer.

I don't honestly know how I can be any clearer than that. Or am I losing my mind and no one understands what I'm saying??

Barb:
You are not losing your mind at all, I have followed this closely. It was a while back but I remember reviewing the pics of Carolyn's tartan when I had my misadventure. I have since deleted but in one of the emails I received saying I had the wrong tartan I received a pic that matched it exactly. The tartan you received on a client's behalf was the first time I had seen that sett. Thanks for your input into this. I think I am about to give up on the idea of getting an AF tartan kilt, it seems so much easier for the other services.

[Barb T]

Barb: I don't recall you writing until now that the weaver you ordered the USAF RPB from was actually Strathmore.

[Head banging on desk...] Sigh.... I didn't say that Strathmore did the weave for me last summer. In fact, it was D.C. Dalgliesh. I merely stated that the USAF uniform tartan that Carolyn is wearing in the pic was custom woven by Strathmore for the Band. The tartan she is wearing is NOT the tartan I had woven last summer - all you have to do is look at the tartan and see that she is wearing Strathmore's Air Force tartan and not the one I had woven (which is the one in the Registry).