Sarong or So Wrong?

[CDNSushi]

And really, that's what this comes down to. Clothing is an identifier of who you are. It always has been. And while there is no particular "rule" against it, wearing the clothing of another culture that one has no ties to is, as Jock Scot might say, "just not done" in most circles.

I think that's probably what a lot of it comes down to... But that being the case, why have SOME elements of cultural identification become commonplace outside their paradigm of origin and others not? Why jeans but not Russian fur hats? Why thong-style sandals (or flip-flops) but not kimono?

But that's not quite the same as walking around speaking with a fake Italian accent, saying "Ciao" to everyone I know, and riding a Vespa while wearing a long scarf. (OK, OK, I know that's a pretty laughable stereotype, but you get my point.) People would likely look at me funny and ask if I'm part Italian or if I lived there. Not that there's any rule against it, but it's just "not done" amongst normal people.

Well, we can break that one down a little bit though. As you said: "fake Italian accent" is just that. Fake. Whereas everything else about the scenario you described, riding around on a Vespa, wearing a long scarf and saying "Ciao" are not fake, and in my mind, perfectly acceptable.

But that's quite different than doing as the Romans do when one has never been to Rome, doesn't know any Romans, and just arbitrarily decided to act like a Roman because it's fun.

And so we come full circle. And that is precisely what Jock Scott talks about when he looks at those of us who choose to wear kilts and wonders, "***." I would imagine that a good number of kilt-wearers on this forum have never visited Scotland... Which, while being perfectly acceptable in my books, is strange to some, and even blasphemous to others... Except that I don't believe we are playing at being Scots any more than I am playing at being Italian by driving a Vespa, wearing a long scarf, and saying Ciao... Now if I suddenly adopted an Glaswegian accent "just coz..." then I think that crosses the line between appreciating what a culture has to offer and being a poseur.

I would never engage in, nor condone, the type of berating that some people do over these things. But surely you understand why people might hesitate to adopt the dress of a culture that they have no ties to, simply out of a sense of common social grace?

Yup. But again, what baffles me more than anything is the selectivity of it... Why some aspects of cultural adoption are acceptable and commonplace and others are not. For instance, sarongs have most CERTAINLY been adopted as common attire outside of Southeast Asia.... for WOMEN. But not so much for men. Why not? I still think western society has this pervasive, morbid FEAR of all things feminine or that are associated with femininity. A subset of that is homophobia, but I think it transcends that. Certainly there are many more issues at play here, but as we are talking specifically about sarongs here in the context of a kilt-wearers' forum, which is a subset of a broad spectrum of male unbifurcated garments, I think it's relevant and fair to think about this issue and the impact that many traditional views on gender and sexual preference have not only on one's own wardrobe, but perception of others in public. This, more than anything I think infects the acceptability of wearing certain items, far more than the culture of origin.

[Bugbear]

Sushi, I've seen some statements on the forum that lead me to consider that some people feel they will be associated with the groups you mention if someone from one of those groups is seen wearing a kilt. In other words, some people appear to feel that if someone is wearing a kilt and does not look "manly," then the general public will think all men wearing a kilt are "unmanly." It's bothered me in the back of my mind for a long time now.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect what you are describing is somewhat tied to the perceptions of gender roles one implicitly learned as a child.

I can speak for the sub-culture I grew up in; manhood was partly defined by a tendency toward brutishness and violence, and this was often directed toward those who were perceived to be "unmanly." I am not only talking about adolescence; some male teachers were this way and encouraged this behavior with their own actions, or by looking the other way during bullying. I had several friends who would be violently punished by their fathers for losing a fight at school., and so on. Being thought of as "unmanly" evoked fear, or in my case isolation; I tried to stay away as best as I could.

Not sure if that will make much sense, but...

[CDNSushi]

It makes sense. And it's just unfortunate that traditional masculinity has become to be defined in those terms.

Some recommended additional reading would be Masculinity Reconstructed: Changing the Rules of Manhood-- At Work, in Relationships, and in Family Life, by Dr. Ronald F. Levant. He defines it well, in that the western concept of masculinity encompasses: "avoidance of femininity; restricted emotions; sex disconnected from intimacy; pursuit of achievement and status; self-reliance; strength and aggression; and homophobia."

If more men could only break free of such misguided notions: "Real men don't cry." "Real men don't wear skirts." "Real men don't <insert perceived non-masculine behaviour here>."

[Tobus]

I think that's probably what a lot of it comes down to... But that being the case, why have SOME elements of cultural identification become commonplace outside their paradigm of origin and others not? Why jeans but not Russian fur hats? Why thong-style sandals (or flip-flops) but not kimono?

Very good point, and I have no idea why. Jeans don't necessarily have a unique cultural connotation, though, so it's no surprise that they have been adopted all over the world. They're simply a fashion garment, not a cultural garment.

I don't think many people associate flip-flops or thong sandals with any particular culture (even though they may have roots in, say, Japanese culture). Undoubtedly there was someone who originally decided to wear thong sandals in Western society and he got odd looks for a while until others caught on. And it might require a similar breaking-in period with things like sarongs. It takes a fashion pioneer to pave the way, although I'm sure many a fashion pioneer has failed miserably in such attempts.

And so we come full circle. And that is precisely what Jock Scott talks about when he looks at those of us who choose to wear kilts and wonders, "***." I would imagine that a good number of kilt-wearers on this forum have never visited Scotland... Which, while being perfectly acceptable in my books, is strange to some, and even blasphemous to others... Except that I don't believe we are playing at being Scots any more than I am playing at being Italian by driving a Vespa, wearing a long scarf, and saying Ciao... Now if I suddenly adopted an Glaswegian accent "just coz..." then I think that crosses the line between appreciating what a culture has to offer and being a poseur.

I think they key difference is that those of us who wear kilts often do so because we have a family history that includes Scottish culture. Jock Scot and other native Scots may not understand it, but here in the Americas, people do understand it. And so it's more acceptable (though not universally 'accepted') to wear cultural garb that one has an association with. But with no association through ancestry, living abroad, or the like, most people have a complete *** reaction.

Yup. But again, what baffles me more than anything is the selectivity of it... Why some aspects of cultural adoption are acceptable and commonplace and others are not. For instance, sarongs have most CERTAINLY been adopted as common attire outside of Southeast Asia.... for WOMEN. But not so much for men. Why not? I still think western society has this pervasive, morbid FEAR of all things feminine or that are associated with femininity. A subset of that is homophobia, but I think it transcends that. Certainly there are many more issues at play here, but as we are talking specifically about sarongs here in the context of a kilt-wearers' forum, which is a subset of a broad spectrum of male unbifurcated garments, I think it's relevant and fair to think about this issue and the impact that many traditional views on gender and sexual preference have not only on one's own wardrobe, but perception of others in public. This, more than anything I think infects the acceptability of wearing certain items, far more than the culture of origin.

Can't argue with that. Western society's lack of acceptance of anything approaching "feminine" is really quite illogical. I suppose we just have to chalk it up to "that's the way things are", even if we don't understand it or agree with it. On the bright side, though, the culture of acceptance is changing rapidly, and many things that would have been taboo when I was younger are now perfectly acceptable.

[GG]

I know the garment doesn't care, but I would feel weird. It's the same reason I don't wear a kimono, non quai thao, ushanka, or other ethnic clothing that I have absolutely no ties to. I would feel like an impostor. Not saying I take issue with anyone else doing it, but it would just make me personally feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not. Especially without a "when in Rome" excuse.

So, Tobus, to your opinion I - and probably a lot of other members here - should not wear the kilt; because they are not Scottish or they have no Scottish roots - some hundred years back?

Or have I just misunderstood you?

[CDNSushi]

So, Tobus, to your opinion I - and probably a lot of other members here - should not wear the kilt; because they are not Scottish or they have no Scottish roots - some hundred years back?

Or have I just misunderstood you?

I didn't read it that way... I saw it as Tobus expressing his personal feeling that for HIM, having some connection to the kilt is important -- but not necessarily that anyone else should have to feel the same way.

[CDNSushi]

Can't argue with that. Western society's lack of acceptance of anything approaching "feminine" is really quite illogical. I suppose we just have to chalk it up to "that's the way things are", even if we don't understand it or agree with it. On the bright side, though, the culture of acceptance is changing rapidly, and many things that would have been taboo when I was younger are now perfectly acceptable.

Lol. Just reading this reminded me of a funny memory. When I was young, I would rather DIE than suffer the embarrassment of holding my mother's purse for her in public when she needed to free up her hands for a moment... And when I got the "You'd BETTER do as I say... Or else..." look, I would take the purse, and hold it "just so" while looking all around just to make sure no one was watching and that no one could POSSIBLY make the mistake that it was actually MY purse.....

Years later, even after I got married, for the first couple years I wouldn't want to hold my wife's purse either... I felt like I was a kid again too... First the "Do it.. OR ELSE" gaze.... then hold it at arm's length with only a thumb and index finger while slowly looking around to make sure no one would think that I was carrying a purse.

Took a long time to evolve not only the maturity not to give a #&$%'(@ what people thought, but also to have enough confidence in my own masculinity (and femininity for that matter).

How absurdly silly though. Why should anyone care that you're carrying a purse or not. And yet, I know that there are thousands and thousands of men out there who are still in that situation... Heaven forbid should their wife or g.f. send him out to buy feminine hygiene products... Or a woman's magazine... Or a pair of pantyhose...

[Tobus]

So, Tobus, to your opinion I - and probably a lot of other members here - should not wear the kilt; because they are not Scottish or they have no Scottish roots - some hundred years back?

Or have I just misunderstood you?

If you carefully re-read the statement you quoted from me, you will clearly see that I said I take no issue with others doing it. It's just my own opinion that I would feel weird doing it.


CDNSushi, I'm right there with you on that issue. I used to hold the purse with a thumb and forefinger as well, trying to make sure that everyone knew I was horrified at having to hold a woman's purse! Now I don't care. Same thing with buying feminine hygiene products at the store. I'm pretty sure people know that they are not for me, so it's pretty ridiculous to feel embarrassed by it.

With that said, though, I have to share this story. At the Renaissance Festival about a month ago, my wife and I saw a gentleman standing outside one of the vendor shops who was wearing a kilt and standing there with a parasol. It was obvious that his wife was inside the shop, so he was simply holding it for her while she was indoors. But my wife couldn't resist approaching him and telling him how pretty he looked with his skirt and parasol. They both got a good laugh out of it. I don't think anybody was actually concerned about his masculinity.

[GG]

If you carefully re-read the statement you quoted from me, you will clearly see that I said I take no issue with others doing it. It's just my own opinion that I would feel weird doing it.

Thank you so much.

I clearly see that you would feel it weird (wearing a kilt if not Scottish).