Is this how all Scotweb kilts look?

[mookien]

... I would wait until an experienced kilt maker or two have chimed in before I got into too big a hurry to PM Dr. Fiddes. I don't how the aprons and pleats and fell are sewn together to each other and can't look just this moment.

AlanH, BarbT, Pleater, paulhenry, lots of folks with a ton more experience than me.

Not a bad idea, but from examining the pictures of the selvedge, Nick might give Colm some immediate acknowledgment and assurance of addressing the issue, if he thinks one exists. Even if Nick doesn't know kilt making intimately, I suspect he has a gaggle of employees who do.

[pascs]

I just thought I'd upload a couple of pics of my kilt to give some idea. A 16oz but not a Scotweb

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I hope Nick forgives me for posting before he has a chance to respond here, but I feel inclined to because I once had a client phone me who was profusely upset over a kilt I had sent them for the exact same reasons. The way they went on about the kilt being a poor-quality, unfinished garment, left me quite befuddled ("is he describing the same kilt I shipped out?") until I realized that he was expecting a full hem on the kilt and was not used to a traditional selvage.

After looking at the photos, I will say not only that this is representative of Scotweb kilts (I would assume), but in fact of all quality kilts.

Others have addressed the first two photos showing a little "tuck" hem in the first pleats bordering the aprons. This is quite typical in modern kilts, and is simply meant to keep the bottom corner of the pleat from poking out beneath the apron. The way it is done in these photos looks comparable to how I always see it done.

But I would like to talk about this photo, showing the bottom of the kilt.

What you describe as "rough cut, looks cheap, and prone to fray," I would call a traditional selvage, in fact NOT cut at all, a hallmark of high quality cloth woven specially for kilt making, and not liable to fray in the slightest.

Cloth that is woven for the purpose of kilt making traditionally has been woven with a selvage, a word that comes to us from "self edge." This means that the ends of the cloth are woven as finished, closed ends. This technique is admirably described by Peter MacDonald in this brief article, which I suggest you read.
http://scottishtartans.co.uk/Traditi...e_patterns.pdf

Made from this type of cloth, a traditional kilt will NOT have a hem, but will rather be made with the selvage of the cloth at the bottom of the kilt. There is no need for any further finishing.

As Peter describes in the article, a lot of modern kilt making cloth is woven on newer looms which were not designed to weave with a selvage and so a false selvage of sort has to be created. This is most often done on what is called a "rapier loom" where each weft thread is cut and then tucked back into the cloth, which forms a clean and finished edge, but also results in an area along the edge that is twice as thick as the rest of the cloth. You can see what this looks like in some of the photographs posted above.


I have seen some mills do this type of edge on their cloth with more or less skill. The better take care that the "line" where the tucked threads end corresponds to a color change in the tartan pattern so that it is less noticeable to the eye. (You can see this in the above photo). I have seen cloth woven where this was not considered and it looks horrible. Also, I have often seen a bit of "fuzz" develop in this tucked area where the fibers of the tucked threads start to poke out and become frayed.

Essentially, it is a compromise method for mills desiring to weave kilt cloth with a finished edge, but using modern looms incapable of weaving with a true selvage.

There are two woolen mills operating today who routinely weave cloth with a true, traditional selvage (I say routinely, because I know of a few other mills who do on occasion, using some of their older looms, but do not do this as a matter of practice).

Those two mills are House of Edgar (who uses modern looms specially retro-fitted with custom additions to allow them to weave a true selvage), and D. C. Dalgliesh (who use older looms). I would assume the cloth for your kilt was woven by one of these mills. (And from the look of the cloth, I would guess Dalgliesh).

In any case, the selvage in your photograph looks just fine to me. Yes, there is some slight unevenness there, but that's fairly typical of this type of weave. It is actually less than I have seen on some cloth. As a kilt maker myself (not affiliated with Scotweb), I would have no problem making a kilt from cloth with this selvage, and as a kilt wearer - with a high degree of concern for quality, mind you - I would have absolutely no problem wearing such a kilt. In fact I would be proud to wear a kilt made from cloth woven with a traditional selvage, and look on it as a mark of quality.

So I think the problem here is not with the kilt but rather with your expectations. So I don't think Scotweb is at fault here, unless there are other issues with this kilt not evident from your photographs.

At the end of the day, though, we all want what we want, and if what you want is a kilt made with a tucked faux selvage, as I have described, I'm sure Scotweb can provide that for you, and likely at a lower cost than what you paid for this one! And you can always sell this present kilt to someone who would really value the traditional selvage of the cloth.

[davidg]

I have to agree with Matt. Unless there is something I am missing, and only a physical inspection could tell me that, the selvedge looks fine to me as do the foldbacks between the pleats at the bottom edge

[ccga3359]

Colm, if it helps you just heard from Matt Newsome who is technically Scotweb's competition (albeit on a different continent). If he can't find fault perhaps it is just down to what you were and were not expecting. Enjoy your kilt knowing that it is indeed a quality built garment.

[mookien]

Matt: Thanks for the very interesting and informative posting, and the pointer to Peter MacDonald's article. Your comments would form the core of another good article in the the TARTAN section of your Albanach.org web pages.

[Jay]

Colm spent $800 on a custom kilt that looks like crap. The kiltmaker is uninterested in his complaint. Even if you guys ate correct in some of the reasons for this kilt to look like crap, why didn't Scotweb wxplain this to him?

For me, I have no interest in dealing with a company that fails to address issues if shoddy $800 product.

[ccga3359]

Colm spent $800 on a custom kilt that looks like crap. The kiltmaker is uninterested in his complaint. Even if you guys ate correct in some of the reasons for this kilt to look like crap, why didn't Scotweb wxplain this to him?

For me, I have no interest in dealing with a company that fails to address issues if shoddy $800 product.

For one thing the original post was yesterday and Colm has made but two posts in all the forum, both in this thread. We don't know if Scotweb has gotten back to him via email, pm or what have you so it is unfair and premature to say that they are uninterested. From what I saw the kilt does not look like crap but indeed show details of a high quality kilt. I have an $800 bespoke kilt, made by a different kiltmaker from custom woven by DC Dagleish (official Ontario and with the kilting selvedge) and apart from the tartan is of equal high quality to pictures show. This is why I spent $800 on a kilt. If the selvedge isn't balls on straight so be it. It IS after all, a custom hand sewn kilt.

[mookien]

... The kiltmaker is uninterested in his complaint.

Jay: Admittedly, I have only limited experience with Scotweb, eg I bought a made-to-measure PC from them. But, in my dealings with them their customer support team was always helpful, prompt, professional, and courteous.

Thus, Colm's comments were mildly surprising to me. Hopefully, his situation is anomalous, and not representative. And, I still think the best thing for him to do, since he obviously is having a problem with "customer service", is to contact Nick directly.

John

[davidlpope]

I've had probably 20 or so kilts pass through my hands. There's nothing in the photos that are linked that look problematic to me. My concern, and this can't help but sound rude although it is not meant to be, is that the OP doesn't know what to look for to determine whether a kilt is well-made or not. The first things that I look at to determine a kilt maker's skill are the sewn portion of the pleats and apron shaping. Those are the dead giveaway for me. The photos posted concern the selvedge of the fabric. This is a function of the loom, not the kilt maker.

As Matt said, you like what you like. If a fellow likes the bulky tuck-in selvedge better than a traditional selvedge, so be it. On the other hand, I don't understand why one would. Best of luck. I'm sure that Nick will do his best to meet your expectations.