Clergy Kilt?

[davidg]

Point being, though, you will have to order through a retailer, rather than through Dalgliesh directly.

Of course you are quite right Matt. I should have made my point slightly clearer that retail customers are only directed to Scotweb from the Dalgliesh website and that they can order elsewhere if they choose to

[Mike_Oettle]

As I see things, the Clergy tartan may be worn by anyone ordained a minister by a Christian denomination.
While at least one pagan minister has laid claim to it, I think it would not really be appropriate for pagans. There are, however, a number of tartans appropriate for pagans, including Druid, Four Quarters and Federation of Circles and Solitaries.
There are also several tartans suitable for wear by Jews, including the Rabbinical tartan: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar...aspx?ref=10100
Rabbi Raphael Pazo has had a kilt made in this tartan – 18 yards of material made according to the principles of kashrut. This means the entire kilt is made of wool. A special lubricant was used to enable sewing with woollen thread.
Other tartans that Jews may wear are those called Hebron, Shalom and Scottish Jewish. There is a tartan for a Jewish school in New Jersey and four for Jewish families.
Regards,
Mike

[Detroitpete]

As I see things, the Clergy tartan may be worn by anyone ordained a minister by a Christian denomination.
While at least one pagan minister has laid claim to it, I think it would not really be appropriate for pagans. There are, however, a number of tartans appropriate for pagans, including Druid, Four Quarters and Federation of Circles and Solitaries.
There are also several tartans suitable for wear by Jews, including the Rabbinical tartan: http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tar...aspx?ref=10100
Rabbi Raphael Pazo has had a kilt made in this tartan – 18 yards of material made according to the principles of kashrut. This means the entire kilt is made of wool. A special lubricant was used to enable sewing with woollen thread.
Other tartans that Jews may wear are those called Hebron, Shalom and Scottish Jewish. There is a tartan for a Jewish school in New Jersey and four for Jewish families.
Regards,
Mike

Mike,

In reading Matt's article on the clergy tartan: http://blog.albanach.org/2005/07/clergy-tartan.html

I can't seem to find the specific language you use to say that this tartan is limited to those of the Christian faith, and therefore not appropriate for an ordained Pagan cleric to wear.

Yes, you are correct in stating that there are some tartans specifically representative of pagan association, however this mirrors the statements made earlier in this discussion regarding the number of tartans with Christian associations to them. This of course rounds us back to the one of the orignal questions posed here, which is paraphrased as 'why another Christian tartan?'.

All that being said, If you go this way you'll get great guidance from Matt.

[biblemonkey]

'Why another Christian tartan?'.

Well, the thinking behind it was that all of the "Christian tartans" are either associated with a particular person (catholic saints, etc.) or particular organizations (Mighty Men) and the there is no basic "Christian Tartan" with affiliation only with the Christian fath in Christ and no connection to a particular person other than Jesus Christ. That was the thinking. While there are no kilt police a person may not feel comfortable wearing a saint-based tartan if the saints are not a part of his faith and if he has no connection or support of Mighty Men he would not wish to wear that tartan either. Meanwhile ALL Christian denominations are based on faith in Christ and this would cover a broader spectrum. The suggestion was put forward to base it on a combination of the Apostolic Creed and the Nicene Creed as these are accepted as good distilations of the basics of Christian beliefs.

Hope that gives a little insight into the reasoning for another Christian tartan.

A note to the rabble; This was a direct answer to a specific question and we have no need to split hairs over the minutae of different faiths or even different branches of aligning faiths. Let's keep this within the rules here. Not that we were getting into danger zones or anything, I just wish to keep this civil and know religion is a hotbed topic sometimes.

[Detroitpete]

Hope that gives a little insight into the reasoning for another Christian tartan.]

Biblemonkey,

Please, I am not questioning whether there is a need for another Christian tartan, only that in the quote I was responding to was suggesting that there were already enough tartans for another religion and that the Clergy tartan was not appropriate for an ordained cleric of another faith. It wasn't the need I was questioning. It was the logic of that specific arguement.

Personally, I don't have a 'dog in this fight' and not to say it is a fight in any sense of the word--just a turn of phrase. I do not however really understand the idea that the tartans suggested in this post with existing Christian representation or meaning to them are not somehow able to be universally accepted by all Christian sects universally. But please, this is only my own personal lack of understanding and do not expect or desire a hijack of this thread in order to clarify this point to me. I'll read along and see if it makes more sense to me later.

Again, kilt on! and Design on!

[davidg]

Meanwhile ALL Christian denominations are based on faith in Christ and this would cover a broader spectrum. The suggestion was put forward to base it on a combination of the Apostolic Creed and the Nicene Creed as these are accepted as good distilations of the basics of Christian beliefs.

I think your thinking is basically flawed for the exact same reason Matt stated earlier in this thread

The Nicene Creed is only accepted as a Christian belief because it was agreed by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. That Council is no longer around to approve a Nicene Tartan. To get universal recognition of a "Christian" tartan you need a universal Christian authority to approve and accept it on behalf of all Christians everywhere and that simply will not happen. Without that any tartan you design becomes just another nice idea that most people will simply ignore as not having any relevance or significance

[macwilkin]

Biblemonkey,

Please, I am not questioning whether there is a need for another Christian tartan, only that in the quote I was responding to was suggesting that there were already enough tartans for another religion and that the Clergy tartan was not appropriate for an ordained cleric of another faith. It wasn't the need I was questioning. It was the logic of that specific arguement.

Personally, I don't have a 'dog in this fight' and not to say it is a fight in any sense of the word--just a turn of phrase. I do not however really understand the idea that the tartans suggested in this post with existing Christian representation or meaning to them are not somehow able to be universally accepted by all Christian sects universally. But please, this is only my own personal lack of understanding and do not expect or desire a hijack of this thread in order to clarify this point to me. I'll read along and see if it makes more sense to me later.

Again, kilt on! and Design on!

I'm not Mike, but from a historian's POV, when the clergy tartan was designed, the majority faith of Scotland was Christian, and the tartan is largely associated with the Presbyterian/C of S, Roman Catholic and Episcopalian denominations.

Again, for informational purposes only.

Regards,

Todd

[Detroitpete]

Todd,
Quite right about 'the majority faith', however I have read nothing so far that specifically limits or restricts the wearing of such tartan in the manner to which we have certain restricted tartans. So we go back again to either, "it is just not done, lad", or the ongoing schools of thought about who 'can' and 'can't' wear any tartan.

[macwilkin]

Todd,
Quite right about 'the majority faith', however I have read nothing so far that specifically limits or restricts the wearing of such tartan in the manner to which we have certain restricted tartans. So we go back again to either, "it is just not done, lad", or the ongoing schools of thought about who 'can' and 'can't' wear any tartan.

http://blog.albanach.org/2005/07/clergy-tartan.html

Matt's blog article is far better at explaining the history of said tartan; again, I don't necessarily believe the tartan is restricted to one particular faith either; in fact, the majority of clergy I know who are active in Scottish organizations & events wear tartans associated with their own particular clans & families.

Since I am not ordained, but only "lay clergy" (a lay eucharistic minister & sub-deacon under warrant from our bishop), I really don't have a dog in the hunt either.

T.

[Burly Brute]

I'd love to see some of the clerics revive the Wilsons' Priest tartan. Wonderfully ecclesiastical colours.

Go on?