POLL-Do you want this tartan?

[DavidB80911]

The idea for the tartan is good but, as stated before, there are quite a few out there already. Is there really a need to add another potatoe to the pot, unless you like potatoes.

How about an alternative! When you look at the rabble when gathered, how many eyes are looking at the kilt pins? As a cost alternative it would not be prohibitive.

Pins could be of the Ichthus (the fish an early Christian sign ), or the Chi Rho, or what ever particular denomination you might be a member of. The options are only limited by your own faith and how you want to display.

OK - I am off my soap-box.

[davidlpope]

How about an alternative! When you look at the rabble when gathered, how many eyes are looking at the kilt pins? As a cost alternative it would not be prohibitive.

***.

[O'Callaghan]

I voted no because I'm an atheist. I'm all for tolerance of all religions, but I couldn't very well vote yes the way it was worded. OTOH, that does still speak to how many of the total membership would be interested.

ETA: There's a kilt pin with a fish here:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FISH-PIN-KIL...item2eb6ce8bd6

[Meggers]

The idea for the tartan is good but, as stated before, there are quite a few out there already. Is there really a need to add another potatoe to the pot, unless you like potatoes.

How about an alternative! When you look at the rabble when gathered, how many eyes are looking at the kilt pins? As a cost alternative it would not be prohibitive.

Pins could be of the Ichthus (the fish an early Christian sign ), or the Chi Rho, or what ever particular denomination you might be a member of. The options are only limited by your own faith and how you want to display.

OK - I am off my soap-box.

This is actually a wonderful idea. I absolutely think thats an awesome alternative.

[artificer]

I could easily be wrong, but I can't help but think some of the No votes were because they thought this poll was asking for a commitment to buy a length of cloth even before seeing the finished product.

I voted no for a several reasons.
1) this project wouldn't represent my particular faith
2) it seems like a solution looking for a problem -

I don't wish this to seem critical, but the OP is really just one chap looking to tie all of christianity together with one tartan. Now, if the various heads of different christian sects got together and said "We'd LOVE something that would unite us under the broad umbrella of our general belief in God" and this project was proposed, it would have a purpose. It WOULD represent that wish of the various factions to be united.

Without that situation, or at least a fairly large non-denominational christian group to sponsor it (at which point the tartan would essentially represent the group - ie be a corporate tartan), it's basically just a personal tartan.

3) The situation is sort of "inorganic", if you will. The vote is asking people to support a "mystery product". I have full faith that, should the project go forward, Matt would do an amazing job designing the tartan. But you're asking people to support "Whatever is behind door #1".

Someone early on in the thread mentioned the R'lyeh Sett that was recently commissioned from Dalgliesh. The process you're proposing here is the diametric opposite of what happened with that tartan.

We were posting in a thread about our shared interest of H.P. Lovecraft's C'thulhu mythos when someone suggested a "group" to share info. I whipped up a tartan design and posted it, half-jokingly suggesting that if we have a group on a kilt forum, we should have a tartan to represent the group. It apparently resonated with said people in the discussion, as we ordered quite a bit of it. :cthulhusmiley:


I do wish you the very best of luck in producing this tartan, but I'm afraid that I'm unable to lend support to the project.

ith:

[Ryan Ross]

I kind of lean toward the traditional mindset that the really meaningful tartans out there are the original clan tartans, as well as a few district/regional/historical tartans. Designing new tartans outside of this context seems to muddy the waters, so to speak.

While I think I understand your viewpoint fairly well, and agree that it's a valid and likely common one, I have to disagree.


Tartans have only existed as symbols with names for a couple hundred years, on the whole; on the other hand, tartan, as a symbol characteristic of Highland Scottish culture, has existed five to ten times as long. And during most of that time, tartan design and weaving was seen as a creative art form. I argue that renewed interest in designing tartans is actually reviving tartan and returning it to its deep roots, just as our kilt wearing is reviving use of the kilt as day-to-day clothing.

Just my thoughts.

And for my vote: If I really like it and could scratch together the funds, I'd pull the trigger. That said, I wouldn't necessarily do it because it was a "Christian tartan", but rather, because I liked the sett, and when people asked me why I was wearing it, I'd have something relevant to shut them up with.

I designed and registered a tartan, myself. However, I designed it myself, and the registration did not cost me a cent; had it been otherwise, I never would have done it. I designed the tartan because I wanted a certain visual asthetic, not because I felt the need to "have my own tartan".

I named the tartan after myself for two very simple reasons: Firstly, because I knew the tartan was going to be registered for the purposes of historical documentation, and that registration really necessitated a name. And secondly, because I knew that if I used my own name, I wouldn't tick anyone off.

[Burly Brute]

I can't believe my eyes with you nay-sayers! Haha. I mean, really, these days people design and produce tartans on complete whims for everything from their “specific surnames” to their business to their favorite type of tea, I don't understand why the sheer thought of a non-denominational, unifying Christian tartan is so unbearable. I mean, those who do not subscribe to Christian doctrine must like the idea from a diversity standpoint, and those who do must like the idea from a unification standpoint—right? I mean, I would assume due to the nature of Christianity (this nature is based on the head of the Church, not necessarily all its adherents) the idea of more unification would be a very welcomed thought.

Either way, I think a vote nay should be sufficient to answer the intended poll and the extra criticism of the motivation and purpose of the kilt could be left out—it’s counter-productive to all things kilt, and as always, FREEEEEEEEEEDOM!!!!!! Heh.

-BB

(I don’t think this post would offend anyone, it’s got a pretty intense tone but doesn’t target out any single individual or sect other than those already addressed by all previous comments…at least, I think?)
Take it in stride gentlemen.

[artificer]

I can't believe my eyes with you nay-sayers! Haha. I mean, really, these days people design and produce tartans on complete whims for everything from their “specific surnames” to their business to their favorite type of tea, I don't understand why the sheer thought of a non-denominational, unifying Christian tartan is so unbearable. I mean, those who do not subscribe to Christian doctrine must like the idea from a diversity standpoint, and those who do must like the idea from a unification standpoint—right? I mean, I would assume due to the nature of Christianity (this nature is based on the head of the Church, not necessarily all its adherents) the idea of more unification would be a very welcomed thought.

Bolding is mine-
I guess my problem with it is that it's the idea of one person assigning such a HUGE meaning to a tartan without at least some voice from the people who would be covered by said tartan's "meaning". Without consent of those who have had this tartan "assigned" to them, it's essentially a personal tartan.

I could design a tartan and say "this tartan represents everyone who loves pickles", but unless that tartan is recognized as such by at least a fair proportion of "pickle-lovers" it is a personal tartan representing MY love of pickles.

I think if the OP wants to design a tartan to represent Christian (generic) faith, he's more than welcome to do so, but there should be some understanding that, for other than the people who might buy the tartan, it won't mean all that much.

Something relatively trivial being represented by a tartan (like a shared love for the C'thulhu mythos - and yes I know I'm inviting disaster here :cthulhusmiley: ) is a bit different than trying to make a tartan to "represent ALL of Christianity in all it's forms". That's a pretty HUGE group of people with fairly divergent attitudes to try to impose one person's design upon - especially without their knowing.

If the tartan represented "X-mark's General Christian Fellowship - all denominations welcome" Group, then THAT would make sense. But to try and encompass 2000 years of history of a multi-pathed faith that has frequently found itself at loggerheads with itself is a task that MIGHT just be a bit too grand.


Please note that the above is not meant to be a discussion of religion per-see, but to illustrate the gigantic scale of undertaking that the OP has proposed, and the personal vs UNIVERSAL nature of a tartan's assigned meaning.
This is just my opinion, and carries no more weight than the paper it's not printed on.

ith:

[Ryan Ross]

Italics are mine-
I guess my promblem with it is that it's the idea of one person assigning such a HUGE meaning to a tartan without at least some voice from the people who would be covered by said tartan's "meaning". Without consent of those who have had this tartan "assigned" to them, it's essentially a personal tartan.

I could design a tartan and say "this tartan represents everyone who loves pickles", but unless that tartan is recognized as such by at least a fair proportion of "pickle-lovers" it is a personal tartan representing MY love of pickles.

I think if the OP wants to design a tartan to represent Christian (generic) faith, he's more than welcome to do so, but there should be some understanding that, for other than the people who might buy the tartan, it won't mean all that much.

Something relatively trivial being represented by a tartan (like a shared love for the C'thulhu mythos - and yes I know I'm inviting disaster here :cthulhusmiley: ) is a bit different than trying to make a tartan to "represent ALL of Christianity in all it's forms". That's a pretty HUGE group of people with fairly divergent attitudes to try to impose one person's design upon - especially without their knowing.

If the tartan represented "X-mark's General Christian Fellowship - all denominations welcome" Group, then THAT would make sense. But to try and encompass 2000 years of history of a multi-pathed faith that has frequently found itself at loggerheads with itself is a task that MIGHT just be a bit too grand.


Please note that the above is not meant to be a discussion of religion per-see, but to illustrate the gigantic scale of undertaking that the OP has proposed, and the personal vs UNIVERSAL nature of a tartan's assigned meaning.
This is just my opinion, and carries no more weight than the paper it's not printed on.

ith:

Thanks, Scott, as I think you hit on a really important point, here... pretty much the same thing I was trying to get across when I mentioned why I named the tartan I designed after myself. You said it better than I could have though, for sure.

But yes, designing, naming, and registering a generalized "Christian" tartan almost seems... presumptuous, come to think of it.

[Burly Brute]

Bolding is mine-
I guess my problem with it is that it's the idea of one person assigning such a HUGE meaning to a tartan without at least some voice from the people who would be covered by said tartan's "meaning". Without consent of those who have had this tartan "assigned" to them, it's essentially a personal tartan.

I could design a tartan and say "this tartan represents everyone who loves pickles", but unless that tartan is recognized as such by at least a fair proportion of "pickle-lovers" it is a personal tartan representing MY love of pickles.

I think if the OP wants to design a tartan to represent Christian (generic) faith, he's more than welcome to do so, but there should be some understanding that, for other than the people who might buy the tartan, it won't mean all that much.

Something relatively trivial being represented by a tartan (like a shared love for the C'thulhu mythos - and yes I know I'm inviting disaster here :cthulhusmiley: ) is a bit different than trying to make a tartan to "represent ALL of Christianity in all it's forms". That's a pretty HUGE group of people with fairly divergent attitudes to try to impose one person's design upon - especially without their knowing.

If the tartan represented "X-mark's General Christian Fellowship - all denominations welcome" Group, then THAT would make sense. But to try and encompass 2000 years of history of a multi-pathed faith that has frequently found itself at loggerheads with itself is a task that MIGHT just be a bit too grand.


Please note that the above is not meant to be a discussion of religion per-see, but to illustrate the gigantic scale of undertaking that the OP has proposed, and the personal vs UNIVERSAL nature of a tartan's assigned meaning.
This is just my opinion, and carries no more weight than the paper it's not printed on.

ith:

I see your point and find it quite convincing and valid; however, I could use the argument for any tartan registered and available. Just because it doesnt tickle a couple of personal fancies, doesnt mean it is no longer serving its intended purpose. I do get what you're say, however, and am a bit betwixt myself on the whole subject. However, I still think a simple, general Christian tartan would just add to the plethora of religiously affiliated tartans that already exist. I see it as more inclusive than the exclusive.

I do like the idea of the Xmarks Christian Fellowship tartan, although it implies that you then have to be a member of Xmarks in order to wear it...

What if the name is just changed to like, "Christ-centered tartan". Then it's purpose remains, but it's not as seemingly exclusive to other future tartans to be made?

Hmmm, how did I get so wrapped up in all this? LoL