Historic Quiz

[bear]

However, from the mid-1900s onwards it appears that every author on the subject has concluded that these early writings and carvings actually refer to or show either the leine or a short pleated jacket which was apparently widespread throughout Europe in the 14/1500s, and that all the evidence indicates that the leine is not, never was, and never became, the kilt and that actually there is no historic Irish connection of any kind to the kilt.

Rubbish.
A pleated garment (the leine) worn with a wool brat travels to a new country with emigrees where a pleated garment (the kilt) is made from wool, and you see no connection?
I don't think you see as clearly as the Executive President of The Scottish Tartans Society, who agrees with what I'm saying.
I'm not going to argue this any more because as I've said, I don't really care where the kilt originated.
I don't think it matters one bit to the guys who nowadays wear kilts as garments, not costumes.
Bye.

[Robbie]

Oh dear, I seem to have upset Bear slightly by challenging one of his long-held perceptions that the kilt is a direct descendant of the leine, and for someone who claims he doesn’t really care where the kilt originated he’s sure bloomin’ argumentative about it!

Whilst I’m sure that most of you are totally bored to tears with this, nevertheless to use an old Scots phrase “facts are chiels that winnae ding” and I am compelled to set the record straight on this (no you’re not – yes I am – no you’re not – yes I am -oh all right then).

There is no dispute amongst any authority that when the Gaels first came to Scotland they wore the leine and the brat. What were these garments? There is unanimous agreement that the leine was a long shirt/tunic/smock type one piece shaped garment, generally made of linen, which reached from the neck to anywhere between mid-thigh and ankle length although widely worn at the shorter length, was put on by pulling over the head, had arm holes/short sleeves/long sleeves, could be straight, full or pleated (pleating had been known for centuries), was often padded or quilted and usually worn with a belt. The brat was simply a mantle or cloak which could be made of any material but most commonly wool, sometimes hooded, worn over the leine. Additionally, a short jacket, which could also be pleated, was sometimes also worn over the leine.

There is also unanimous agreement amongst all authoritative writers that around the 1500s, and in Scotland only, the woollen belted plaid aka the great kilt appeared, and it is this garment and not the leine which was the forerunner of the kilt as we know it today. Whilst Bear claims that the book foreworded by the Executive President of the Scottish Tartans Society agrees with his theory that the kilt developed from the leine I’m afraid it says no such thing. What the extract on the Internet actually says is “By the end of the sixteenth century, or perhaps before that time, a further garment, the Belted Plaid, was certainly being worn by many Highlanders.” The key words here are “further garment” ie the Belted Plaid was being worn in addition to (or on top of) the leine, and this is in total agreement with all the other available documentary evidence, which also indicate that in turn the leine simply developed into a form of shorter shirt worn under the Belted Plaid or, for the poorest Highlanders, simply vanished altogether.

[Alaskan]

Whilst I’m sure that most of you are totally bored to tears with this,

Robbie, don't worry about whether some people might be bored or not. If the conversation bores someone they don't have to read it. Personally, I am very interested in history and find this thread to be one of the more interesting threads in the forum.

[Casey]

Robbie,

Thanks for stirring up the pot. It's great to see the different interpretations of history. History is as much art and interpretation as it is science. We have a few facts and we fill in the, sometimes rather large, gaps with theory and opinion.

This thread has got me reevaluating my historical viewpoint.

I think that we may be creating new history. We are now taking a garment that has a history and applying it to our current culture and technology and coming up with something new and, in my opinion exciting.

Casey

[The Kilted Chef]

Robbie, remember that history isn't written by those who were there, but by those who where there afterwards.

Larry

[bubba]

Robbie, remember that history isn't written by those who were there, but by those who where there afterwards.

Larry

and on the winning side

[Graham]

Robbie, as I've said before, I love your histerical, sorry, I mean historical posts. I am fascinated by history of the kilt.

[Casey]

I love having links to historical stuff. They quite often lead to a great cyber adventure.

This thread had been good and thought provoking.

Casey

[filman]

good reading here folks.. I have somthing to add to your quest of history.

The Egyption Men of old wore a kilted garment much like the small kilt..
It was made of egyption cotten.

[switchblade5984]

i got three right (good guesser)

good night all!