An alternative to "gentlemen"

[Father Bill]

Bill, if my sister in law was to compliment me on acting like a gentleman, I would be pleased. If one of the women or men in my department used the term approvingly, referring to me, I would consider it a compliment.

But on X Marks the Scot, the term seems to me to have gathered up a whole lot of connotations which have *Nothing* whatsoever to do with honorable, masculine, kind, and considerate behavior.

So in fact, were someone to refer to me, now as one of the "Gentlemen of X Marks the Scot", I would...yes....be annoyed by it.

Gotcha! I was worried when I saw your symbolic cussing and the attack on the Dandelion folk (or which I'm one). I guess I just saw those as being folks who believed in good manners, so I joined. I wouldn't want to have a group for folks who believed in bad manners.

SO... if I do call you a gent some time, know that it's meant with kindness and masculine respect, because that's what it would mean to me. I think you may be right that it has gathered up some newer and rather silly connotations in our recent discussions that themselves make me raise my left eyebrow as I pause with my cut crystal glass of carefully selected single-malt scotch whiskey.

I want to be a "gentleman" but in the sense of being polite and appropriately courtly while admitting to you and through you to our public that if I bow to a young lady, it's probably so that I can have a good look at her ankles!

Yours,

Bill+

[MacMillans son]

So in fact, were someone to refer to me, now as one of the "Gentlemen of X Marks the Scot", I would...yes....be annoyed by it.

I think there is a pretty slim chance of that Alan, annoyance averted.

I must say, and we can discuss it further in person in a couple of weeks if you like, that I too find it odd that with all of your rantings about people being allowed to wear the kilt anyway they like, that you spend an awful lot of time on here telling others how they should or shouldn't behave, write, talk, drink, dress, photograph themselves,.... without it annoying you. That is just a backhanded way of implying your perspective, or way of doing things is somehow better, more real, more masculine(?) than what they are doing. It just seems inconsistent with what you frequently request of others here on Xmarks.

Respectfully,
Brooke

[Alan H]

I think there is a pretty slim chance of that Alan, annoyance averted.

I must say, and we can discuss it further in person in a couple of weeks if you like, that I too find it odd that with all of your rantings about people being allowed to wear the kilt anyway they like, that you spend an awful lot of time on here telling others how they should or shouldn't behave, write, talk, drink, dress, photograph themselves,.... without it annoying you. That is just a backhanded way of implying your perspective, or way of doing things is somehow better, more real, more masculine(?) than what they are doing. It just seems inconsistent with what you frequently request of others here on Xmarks.

Respectfully,
Brooke

No, now there's the difference.....and this is important, Brooke.

I have NO intention of suggesting that I am the authority on what will be done...how kilts will be worn, how pictures will be taken, how people should define what's right, what people should wear, what they should write about on X Marks... or ANYTHING on X Marks for that matter.

I do not own this forum. Nor am I on the mod squad (for which we are all thankful! ) I have NO authority to define ANYTHING on X Marks. None. Zip, nor do I pretend to have any such thing, or aspire to be any such "authority"...and if I DID have it, I'd resign the position immediately.

There's a BIG difference between A.) pointing out what seems effeminate and off-putting to ME, and B.) defining what people can and can not do.

I can do A. You can do A, and in fact you just did, and thanks for not mincing your words. ANYONE can do A.

I have no right, and neither does anybody else but Steve Ashton and to some degree the moderators, to do B.

Period. End of Story.

[macwilkin]

Todd, of course if you want to wear your kilt and look like a throwback to 1920, you are welcome to do so. And if I happen to think you look like a freak and you're walking around in a costume, I am also welcome to do that, right? Not that I think you look like a freak, but I expect you get the point.

Yes, I do get the point, Allen, and yes, you're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. But I think Brooke raises some very valid points about condemning viewpoints you personally disagree with whilst calling for people be tolerant of others who may not share the same ideas in terms of kilts and associated rig.

As far as being called a freak; well, I've been called that word and some worse ones over the years. Those words tends to roll off the bayonet after a while. As the unknown author of one of my favourite poems stated:

Wear the garments he likes to wear,
Never dreaming that people stare...

He is kind and gentle, or harsh and gruff;
He is tender as love -- or he's rawhide tough;
A rough-necked rider in spurs and chaps,
Or well-groomed son of the town -- perhaps;*
And this is the little Red God I sing,
Who cares not a wallop for anything
That walks or gallops, that crawls or struts,
No matter how clothed -- if it hasn't got guts.

--The Little Red God

*Emphasis mine.

T.

[GoodGirlGonePlaid]

It seems like Alan wants to give us "non-traditional guys" a voice. A place where us Lebowskis can feel proud of our band t-shirts, scuffed boots, and kilts. Some lifestyles, even if money is abundant, do not require all of the "top shelf" items of life.

I'm currently drinking a moderately cheap champagne out of a very swanky Tiffany's flute.... Because it's almost new years and I put my caber extension on today. It's all about balance, if I understand this thread correctly. I *think* this thread is saying that everything doesn't have to be "top shelf" to be acceptable.

[LitTrog]

I *think* this thread is saying that everything doesn't have to be "top shelf" to be acceptable.

And, perhaps, that gentlemen don't need to clean the stick after removing it.

I like the ideal, but I love the iconoclasts.

[Alan H]

Todd, I know Brooke personally, and I like the guy, and he dresses quite dapperly. Indeed, he even "outdresses" Panache on occasion. I don't wear clothes like that. It's not a problem. I LIKE Brooke. It doesn't bother me that we're having a disagreement and he's telling me pretty much to my face that he doesn't like what I'm writing, and thinks it's hypocritical.

But you're both wrong on one account.

I am expressing an opinion and at this point I am kind of taking the gloves off, because I happen to really like the forum and community of X Marks the Scot and I think that some of what I see isn't very helpful to the overall community.

But on this point you are dead wrong. I am NOT telling anybody how they must or must not do things.

I am NOT telling anybody how they must or must not do things. Do what you want, as long as you don't break any forum rules.

I don't LIKE photograph after photograph after photograph taken by some guys who set up the shots, over and over again with an eye to nothing but showing off their finery to the best effect. Once in a while doesn't bother me, it's fine. Over and over again....it sends a message and I don't think it's good for the forum.

Pictures where someone gets a new jacket and snaps a shot of it? Great! Pictures of YOU, Todd, in your kilt at your Military History Association get-together....Great! Someone gets a new kilt, and snaps a shot or two or three of it? Wonderful! Pictures of someone backpacking in a kilt? Super! Pictures of Pipe Bands, piping in kilts? Love 'em. Pictures of the SEKS Kilt group getting together and razzing the Abuser of Rubber Chickens? Wonderful. I think ....I think those are all wonderful. Guys repeatedly setting up their lovely camera to display the gloriousness of their perfectly coordinated kilted ensemble, assembled through spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars to show us all "how it's done"? No, no Todd. I'm not so keen on that.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to try to tell anybody how they MUST take their pictures.

I found the perfume thread to be mind boggling. Have you looked at it? There was serious, actual discussion about the relevance of a mens "toilette water" named Cumming. You don't like that I used the word "cumming"? Then go look at the thread. Do I think it's very helpful to the overall forum that we go on about Mens PERFUME? No. No, I don't think that it is, and I don't mind saying so, flat out.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to try to tell people that they can't discuss mens perfume on X Marks the Scot.

Got the difference? The "gentlemen" issue is the lynchpin for me, and has been for some time. But have you ever see me foment to have the "Dandelions" removed?

No.

If you don't like my opinions, then you can put me on ignore. That's what the function is for. Alternatively you can tell me that I'm a hypocrite. That's fine....you're entitled to your opinion. You can state what YOU like..... perhaps you would LIKE to wear a mens perfume named Cumming. I haven't the slightest idea.

But if you ask me, it's not a whole lot farther down the road that we're on now, until this becomes Gentleman Tweedy Toms Place, and I, personally, am not interested in participating in that forum.

AND....I seem to be the only person on the forum who is willing to actually say this out loud.

AND....GGGP is also right. It's OK to be scruffy. It's not a freaking SIN.
"A gentleman is always presentable". Oh, GAG. Of course, that's just MY opinion. Others may be convinced that in fact, of course, a gentleman is ALWAYS "presentable".

[macwilkin]

Actually, Alan, I am a member and Past National Officer of the Clan Cumming Society of the United States of America, but I prefer Caswell Massey No. 6, the cologne worn by George Washington.

T.

[Alan H]

Bleah, I got all wrapped back up in this because Brooke posted, and I count him as a friend and a good bloke. I was gonna call it wraps five posts ago.

And now....since I've stated my opinion multiple times....

OPINION...not my "commands"....my OPINION...

I will. If anyone wants to discuss the issue with me further, PM's are open. Tomorrow. Or whenever I log in, again, which may be a while.

[macwilkin]

Alan,

I really don't have an issue with a majority of your post. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I wouldn't put you on the "ignore" list simply because we don't always agree. In this instance, the "devil" very well may be in the details. And I cannot, in good conscience, condemn you for playing "devil's advocate", because that is how I teach some historical topics in my classes.

This thread (and our other debates) reminds me of a story: years ago a fellow showed up at one of our local Celtic society functions in very "contemporary" kit: I don't remember the whole outfit, but I do remember an old USSR KGB shield badge as a kilt pin, combat boots and a giga-pet hanging from his studded kilt belt. His mother told our society President that he "dressed that way to pi** off the kilt police", yet none of the other kilted gents said a word to him, or for that matter, about him. I remember the president telling us about what his mother said, and one of my friends remarked that "he came in gunning for bear" when he really didn't even give us a chance. If folks want to look "contemporary" or "scruffy" or whatever look they want, then I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Just give me the benefit of the doubt first. Some of us bluff old traditionalists aren't too bad.

I think your last post was a good one, and you did clarify your points well. Again, I may not agree with all of them, but I respect your right to present them.

As far as being "scruffy", I tend to follow the example of my Iowa grandfather, who wore dirty coveralls when farming or working on tractors, but then changed into his suit and french-cuff shirts for masonic lodge meetings or Presbyterian services on Sunday.

T.