Ditch Flower of Scotland?

[xman]

I have never been a huge fan of Flower of Scotland, although it is undeniably popular and well known. The UK as a sovereign state does not have an official National Anthem , however God Save the Queen (KIng) has been the de facto National Anthem by convention since the XVIII century, but it has become increasingly unpopular in Scotland since my childhood.

I have for many years believed that Is There For Honest Poverty (A Man's a Man for a' That) would be the most appropriate, because it speaks to values of universal human dignity (is about who we are or want to be) rather than sticking it to the English at Bannockburn 700 years ago (looking to ancient victories).

I don't want to be political but whatever happens in Scotland's constitutional future (assuming the Queen and her successors remain our Head of State), I would advocate use of the Scottish anthem generally and God Save the Queen (King) when the Sovereign is present, much as happens in Canada.

This is very much my position on the matter. A Man's a Man is an excellent idea, but I doubt that Scots (and it's their decision no matter what I think) are ready to be that froward thinking right now. I would like to be proven wrong.

[Zardoz]

Sectarian singing laws

[McClef]

England does have an anthem - Land of Hope and Glory - this is often played when England is playing on its own or has a team such as at the Commonwealth Games.

God Save the Queen is a UK thing and the only official one as things currently stand.

In Wales we have Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau and Scotland's current favourite is Flower of Scotland. It replaced Scotland the Brave which was the previous one.

Often it is only the first verses of any of them are sung.

[cessna152towser]

You have to wonder if thescot is winding us up here.
I tried the link also and it linked to a short film of two babies, I can see absolutely no suggestion in the short film of anyone wanting to ditch Flower of Scotland.

[Peter Crowe]

England does have an anthem - Land of Hope and Glory - this is often played when England is playing on its own or has a team such as at the Commonwealth Games.

God Save the Queen is a UK thing and the only official one as things currently stand.

In Wales we have Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau and Scotland's current favourite is Flower of Scotland. It replaced Scotland the Brave which was the previous one.

Often it is only the first verses of any of them are sung.

God Save the Queen (King) status isn't quite official (as in defined by law). The UK doesn't officially have a national flag on land or a national anthem on that same basis, although the Union Flag, legally defined as the Queen's (King's) Colour and God Save the Queen (King) are customarily recognized as the de facto national or state flag (land) and anthem. We do have three (actually more if you count jacks and defaced ensigns issued by Admiralty warrant) legally defined official ensigns for use at sea.

As to the anthems used at sporting occasions these have been decided by small and unrepresentative groups. England has many fine songs that would serve as an anthem, although I associate Elgar's Land of Hope and Glory with the wider British Empire in the first half of the 20th century. I would suggest Blake's Jerusalem would be a better choice for England but 'I don't have a dog in that fight' either.

Wales' Land of my Fathers would be unassailable IMO.

I have participated in many discussions relating to a Scots anthem, and while I quite like the Corries folk-singing, I don't think Flower of Scotland works on various levels. When I was younger, I thought Burns's Robert Bruce's March to Bannockburn (Scots Wha Hae) would have been a good choice, but on mature reflection came to believe that his Is There For Honest Poverty (A Man's a Man for a' That) was better as it speaks about the best values of Scottish society rather than national chauvinism.

[thescot]

Oh. Pooey. That was dithered wrong link.

I'll do better in a few. But right now I am on the wife's Kindle Fire and I don't know how to open two windows.

[MacRobert's Reply]

God save the Queen suffers, not only from that ghastly anti-Scottish last verse but also from a tune that has all the musical sophistication of a nursery rhyme.

Flower of Scotland is musically a bit better, IMHO, but defining ourselves on the basis of gubbing the English ... rather a long time ago ... does not serve us well! Great for sporting events but a bit lacking in grace and aspirational gravitas for matters of state.

A man's a man has by far the best sentiments but the language is gender specific and somewhat classist. It is not so easily sung by the musically challenged although it was sung rather well at the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999. By the way, the motto if the Scottish Qualifications Authority comes from the song: "pride o’ worth".

Now the Welsh have a cracking anthem. Where are our Scottish composers and song writers when you need them? Perhaps some words could be written to Peter Maxwell Davies’ Farewell to Stromness? Sir Peter, however, is English, in spite of his Welsh surname. He does live in Orkney but this is not considered to be part of Scotland by more than a few Orcadians!

The fine pipe tune, Highland Cathedral, may be another possibility but it was written by Germans, Ulrich Roever and Michael Korb. One set of lyrics is:
Land of my fathers, we will always be
Faithful and loyal to our country.
In times of danger we will set you free.
Lead you to glory and to victory.

Hail, Caledonia, to our ancient prayer.
In this Highland Cathedral, let our standards bear.
Joining together with one dream to share.
God bless the people of this land so fair.

Gone is the past, let us start anew.
Let this hope of peace always remain.
Spirit of Scotia, be strong and true.
Then your children will smile again.

Rise Caledonia, let your voices ring
In this Highland Cathedral of our God and King.
Whom, joy and liberty, to all will bring.
Come, let your heart, with love and courage, sing.

Lonely the exile o’er distant seas.
The home of their birth, gone from their eyes.
Bring back their souls o’er the ocean breeze
To the land where their fathers lie.

Rise Caledonia, let your voices ring
In this Highland Cathedral of our God and King.
Whom, joy and liberty, to all will bring.
Come, let your heart, with love and courage, sing.

Perhaps Flower of Scotland will survive because it is the least-worst option.

[McClef]

There are other tunes which are automatically associated with a particular country but funnily enough God Save the Queen isn't one of them.

It is the Anthem of Lichtenstein and the Royal Anthem of Norway and as FDR is reported to have said to his son when meeting Churchill at Placentia Bay in Newfoundland - you know Eliot? I don't think I ever heard My Country T'is of Thee played better!"

Nothing can be truly official without a people or their representatives at the very least, agreeing what their anthem should be. Anthem words that include reference to a deity will never please everyone, that is the nature of the Beast, but ones which refer to the beauty or accomplishments of a land will fare better.

Those quoted words for Highland Cathedral, one of my favourite tunes, do not even scan and that is never a good idea either.

Perhaps the Spanish have the right idea - their Anthem has no words!

[madmacs]

I believe Billy Connolly did a bit about replacing the national anthem... Was quite funny

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ

[Salvianus]

Personally, I am in the slight minority in preferring the older standard, Scotland the Brave, because the tune makes me want to stand up and march, Cliff Hanley's lyrics sing the praises of the nation itself, and I like it's nod to those of us who are away. Admittedly, they do focus on the Highlands, rather than the Lowlands and I know it's annoying when it's used frivolously in some hackneyed stereotype. Nothing's perfect.

I can't say I recall hearing any more than the first verse of 'God Save the Queen' in real life, although I know 'Thy choicest gifts' is used sometimes:
"May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice
God save the Queen."

Leaving aside the merits of a Constitutional monarchy, I think it at least fits one neatly. I've never heard the other verse even attempted: "enemies" and "arise" no longer rhyme in the 'Standard English' accent.

I was under the impression that the verse with 'rebellious Scots' was just a windmill to tilt at: it was supposedly made up at the time of the '45 but only published in a Victorian magazine article which, to me, gives it at best the pedigree of a topical football chant. It isn't ever sung and wasn't, for example, mentioned by George V, who regularised the anthem. I prefer to think of it as something the anthem has stepped in.

There are several much more inspiring and inclusive verses suggested by more modern adders-on, but they haven't caught on either.