The Kilt Kops

[auld argonian]

...and then there's the inevitable course that so many things must take in the global marketplace...some things that were once exclusive to some ethnic group or geographical area just get adopted by a wider audience and become part of everybody's wardrobe...

Best

AA

[Jock Scot]

As with many things, there are points of view based on good foundations and points of view based on unsound foundations and whether we agree with them, or, not, there is a time to hold your council and a time to voice an opinion. There is also a way of voicing those opinions without upsetting your listeners. Equally there is a polite and impolite way of receiving those views. I fear that the skills of knowing when to keep quiet from any point of view and perspective is on the wane.

[Peter Crowe]

I wonder whether this has more to do with the highland/lowland divide than anything else

It seems to me that those who would keep the kilt to themselves are highlanders. Those who would share it around are lowlanders. And the highlanders equally seem to suggest that they would prefer lowlanders not to wear the kilt either

Historically lowlanders did not really wear tartan or kilts so it might be a bit of a "parochial" thing going on here. Not serious enough to start a war though

It may well be be David, but it also overlooks the fact that at the time the kilt was reinvented as Scotland's national dress in the early nineteenth century many folk from the Highlands chose not to emigrate overseas but migrated to the Industrial urban centres of Lowland Scotland.

Moreover, some historians argue (most notably T.M. Devine) very plausibly that the Establishment welcomed and encouraged the development of what we now call Traditional Highland (Civilian) Dress as a politically safe expression of Scottish identity when the eighteenth century project of replacing Scottish identity with a North British identity reached its limits. This also coincided with the discovery that an inclusive dual Scottish-British patriotic identity could be promoted from the reflected glory of the kilted Highland regiments during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.

Where I grew up in west-central Scotland (suburbs of Glasgow) in the 1960's and 1970's the wearing of Civilian Highland Dress was a very middle class way to express one's Scottishness. It was perceived if you wore the kilt that you were 'one of the toffs/snobs who lived in the big private houses' as opposed to someone who was a council tenant. A generalisation I know, but not without quite a lot of truth behind it. The same phenomena held true for my father growing up in the 1940's and 50's. In the past 15-20 years this class aspect of kilt wearing has begun to change (at least among the folk I know and observe) with a new found confidence in Scottish identity.

There has been a lot said about Glaswegian attitudes to the kilt for example, which portrays Glasgow people as entirely homogenous in their culture and ignorant of the Scottish Highlands, both assumptions which are (IMHO) incorrect. It is also worth remarking that there is a lot of variation within the Highlands and to take one example Caithness and Sutherland are different from each other and both are very different to Argyll. I don't have access to the figures to be exact about numbers over time, but there is plenty of empirical evidence that very many Highland families migrated to Glasgow between the late 18th and early 20th centuries. Moreover, of Scotland's four major cities Glasgow is not only the one furthest south, it is also furthest west and most physically proximate to the Highland geological boundary (about 10 or so miles away). I should also point out when I say Glasgow, I am also including the contiguous urban and suburban area not merely the City council area. Furthermore, while I was studying at Glasgow University (1996-2000) undergraduate and (2002/03) as a post-graduate, it was often claimed the city had a larger resident population of native Gaelic speakers than the entire population of the Western Isles. Although it should also be pointed out the figures for Punjabi and Urdu speakers were even higher.

[Deil the Yin]

Really interesting/poignant post that I enjoyed reading, but got lost/confused (admittedly not a stretch most of the time) with the negative reference to "middle class" in the paragraph below:

...Where I grew up in west-central Scotland (suburbs of Glasgow) in the 1960's and 1970's the wearing of Civilian Highland Dress was a very middle class way to express one's Scottishness. It was perceived if you wore the kilt that you were 'one of the toffs/snobs who lived in the big private houses' as opposed to someone who was a council tenant. A generalisation I know, but not without quite a lot of truth behind it. The same phenomena held true for my father growing up in the 1940's and 50's. In the past 15-20 years this class aspect of kilt wearing has begun to change (at least among the folk I know and observe) with a new found confidence in Scottish identity.

Should I understand that Glasgow is/was, or is stereotyped as, more or less working class, with the "middle class" a severe minority and thus resented by the majority working class and that you yourself perhaps hail from that working class?

Thanks,
Wesley

PS: have some Crow(e) kinfolk in Kentucke; would be fascinated to hear of your Crowe origins if ye ever have the time...

[Steve Ashton]

After more than 200 posts to this thread it is no longer about my original post. In a way it has become just the opposite. One person telling another what they can or cannot do.

I suspect that after this many posts some have not read the first post to this thread or are simply responding to someone else.

I will then remind everyone of what I said in the original post.




"Just so there are no mistakes about what X Marks is, let me state this as plainly as I can.

This is a kilt forum. It is where those who wear the kilt, appreciate the kilt, or can identify a kilt 2 times out of 3 without having to look in the back of the book, can gather and share our love of this garment we call the kilt.

It does not matter how you wear your kilt or what type of kilt you wear. It is not about what you wear with your kilt.

There are no, and will not be any, Kilt Kops on X Marks. A member can post photos of how they choose to wear their kilt. A member can ask other members for opinions on how their kilt looks. A member can state their preference for their chosen accessories.

But so far no one has been able to come up with a single definition of what a kilt is.
We have as many opinions on what is worn with a kilt as we have members.
It would be the height of egotism for one member to tell another that they are wearing their kilt wrong.

We have members from the Scottish highlands, the lowlands, from elsewhere in the UK, from N. America, Europe, S. Africa, Japan, and about everywhere else you can think of. We even have a member who wintered over in Antarctica with his kilt.

We are a community of kilt wearers. We share and respect the kilt in all its forms and in all the ways it can be worn. Of course we will sometimes disagree among ourselves but when someone outside of our community attempts to tell a member that they are wrong or cannot wear the kilt we band together in support.

Our community is made up of individuals. Individuals who are strong willed, opinionated, self-confidant, and even, sometimes, eccentric. Each has their own reason for wearing the kilt. Even our advertisers and staff participate here as individual members first.

As individuals we can share our opinions. We can offer advice from our own experiences and preferences. We can even state "I would not wear my kilt that way", but we always respect each other for their experiences and preferences.

This forum will welcome anyone who wears, or wishes to wear, the kilt.

Kilt Kops? Well, you're free to tell me that you would not wear your kilt a particular way. What you can't do is try to tell me I am wrong to wear my kilt my way.

Actually, I guess you can try. Just remember that if you do try, you had better bring friends, lots of friends. Because I've got 15,000 X Marks members on my side."





As the OP of this thread I am requsting that it be closed so the original intent is not lost.