An Open Question for 'Jock Scot' (and Scots)

[ForresterModern]

When I show up (someday) at Jock Scot's door kilted and balmoraled in my finest tweeds, hose and well polished brogues, bearing a new bottle of fine single malt, I bet I will be invited in and welcomed wholly and without resentment, despite the fact that I will be, as a 13th generation American of multinational heritage, "playing scot".

Every one has their own ideas and feelings and for their own often inexplicable reasons, but just because one cannot specifically explain them does not in any way invalidate them or diminish their importance, to that person and those around them. Jock's opinions are developed from the experiences of his long and probably interesting life, and should be savored for that alone without judgement or valuation or argument. Whether or not I agree with Jock's opinions, whether or not I may abide by his suggestions, will be based on my own experiences in my not quite as long and likely far less interesting life. But we should still be able to sit down together (literally or electronically), talk about it or other things, and be friends, and, (someday I promise Jock) share that fresh bottle of fine single malt, regardless of our "differences". I also promise to not wear a flat cap to your place, too, in sincere consideration.

jeff

[ctbuchanan]

To me the difficulty presented to all Scots back in Scotland is that they can not put themselves in our shoes - meaning those of us who have found ourselves in other lands for all the many reasons that abound.

It is perhaps easy for someone to say they would not want their grandchildren wearing the kilt, because they can't fully appreciate our feelings on the matter any more than we can fully appreciate theirs. It is through discussions like this that we can try to more fully understand the differing points of view. I can only imagine that there would be few things more hurtful than to have a grandson deny his heritage and all that goes with it anymore than a grandfather denying it to him. What possible gain would it serve? Why would anyone want to say that all kilts belong in Scotland any more than all Border Collies? To each his own is fair, I just really can't grasp it.

I can only attest that if our family had given up our Scottish heritage and its many outward displays i.e. the kilt, tartan, mince and tatties; my mother who came here as an adult after WWII would have been heartbroken. She encouraged us continuously to embrace our American homeland but to also remember proudly our Scottish heritage.

As we Americans like to say - I may not agree with your opinion but I will defend to the end your right to express it!

[Jock Scot]

To me the difficulty presented to all Scots back in Scotland is that they can not put themselves in our shoes - meaning those of us who have found ourselves in other lands for all the many reasons that abound.

This is really my point, some Scots don't understand where you are coming from and it is impossible to put themselves in your shoes simply because they are still in Scotland and don't have your history.

So all I am pointing out to those of you that seem to have the idea that wearing the kilt is "honouring","flattering " and understood by us over here, When it plainly is not by at least some Scots. The end result is that it appears to be an awful shock to some of you chaps over there.

Now once the shock has gone these differences can be thought about, by all, digested and a greater understanding hopefully follows. None of have to agree,but at least we have a better understanding of another point of view.

I am sorry its nearly one o clock in the morning and I am going to bed!

[RockyR]

Many ex pat Scots (and Irish for that matter) that we've met in the 9 years of business have stated something along these lines:

When I was in Scotland / Ireland, I was just another citizen. Now that I am in America, I have more feeling of connection to Scotland / Ireland than I did when I was there.

Another way of putting it: Some of the biggest "flag waving Scots / Irish only became that way after leaving their country". Kind of the same thing as the old saying "you don't know what you've got until it's gone".

Again, no disrespect is meant by this as I am sure there are many fiercely patriotic Scots / Irish. I'm just pointing out an observation about the ex pats I've met.

[ccga3359]

When I show up (someday) at Jock Scot's door kilted and balmoraled in my finest tweeds, hose and well polished brogues, bearing a new bottle of fine single malt, I bet I will be invited in and welcomed wholly and without resentment, despite the fact that I will be, as a 13th generation American of multinational heritage, "playing scot"...

When I show up (someday) at Jock Scot's door kilted and balmoraled in my finest tweeds, hose and well polished brogues, bearing a new bottle of fine single malt, I bet I will be staring at the wrong end of a blunderbuss..."Get lost and leave the bottle" He'll say.

Jock Scott and I are as different as chalk and cheese, except for a sense of humour perhaps. I've always admired him and respect his comments veblunderbussn if differing than mine. Ask the man a honest question, you will get an honest answer. The OP asked such a question solicitating Jock's opinion. It boggles my mind that some can take offence to that. Why should he have to defend that opinion? I know that if my opinion is different to his he'll respect that. I'm dual citizen English by birth, Canadian by choice. as I've said before, the only drop of Scottish blood in my family is on the ancestral sword. I wear kilts, I enjoy kilts and I respect kilts and No, I do not dress as a Morris dancer and never will. Knowing this, the man has never discouraged me wearing a kilt, nary even a suggestion of such and we still converse freely. We both know that the earth still revolves, the sun still rises in the east.

As for me being a "pretend Scot" I dare say not. I do get offended by those who get more Scottish when they don the kilt, to the point of adopting a fake accent. I'm too proud of country of birth and country of adoption to pretend to be anything but who I am.

Jock you keep being you and I'll keep being me, that's where true discussion and understanding comes from.

[Sir William]

When I show up (someday) at Jock Scot's door kilted and balmoraled in my finest tweeds, hose and well polished brogues, bearing a new bottle of fine single malt, I bet I will be invited in and welcomed wholly and without resentment, despite the fact that I will be, as a 13th generation American of multinational heritage, "playing scot".
jeff

After all the discussion and exchanges of opinion in this (and other concurrent threads), I'm beginning to think I need to show up at Jock's door kilted while wearing a German Alpine hat, Irish linen collarless shirt, and cowboy boots, carrying a collection of single-malt, pilsner, Guinness, and moonshine to reflect my multi-national ethnic background.

I haven't figured out how to represent my English heritage, but after watching Braveheart I'm pretty sure that part would not be welcome in Scotland...

Seriously, I see that there are as many different perspectives on when, where, how and by whom a kilt should be worn as there are members of this forum. Even our Scots can't agree among themselves (but that is as its always been) so I will take it all into consideration and then try to do what pleases me without offending anyone too much.

Not to worry Jock, I'll be appropriately attired....

[O'Searcaigh]

Logical perhaps, ...we all know that the cat is out of the bag and there is nothing any one, not even a Highlander , can do about it.

So what to do? Well you can take a "dog in the manger attitude " or you can try to get those outwith Scotland to understand that the kilt is not just a piece of clothing and some Scots are troubled by this way of thinking.

All I am pointing out to those that are willing to read what I and others are saying, with an open mind that there are real---very real----- reservations, misconceptions about the kilt. For example the "honour" thing, the "flattery" thing, the "I can wear the kilt how I damn well like" thing, the "no one can tell me how, when and where I like" stuff.

I quite accept that those that don't care are a lost cause. I quite accept that all this is a two way thing, but unless someone points out these reservations and that these preconceived ideas are in fact unsound, then no one is going to get anywhere and that is at the very least is not helpful all round.

So some of this "food for thought" is hard to digest for some, but as far as I am concerned if just one person outwith Scotland actually thinks that there is another point of view, even if they are not actually going to change anything then I feel that I have achieved a wee something. In fact to the credit of many members on this website they appear to have thought quite hard about what I am saying. I can ask no more.

Jock -- there is indeed much "food for thought" in the above and in some of your subsequent postings in this thread but not only is some of it "hard to digest," it is even hard to swallow. It does not seem that in saying: "all I am pointing out..." you simply want to make us aware that there are some Scots who have attitudes such as you express. That is trivially true since you are a Scot and you have expressed and are again expressing them. Of course we are aware that there are lots and lots of people who think other people shouldn't be thinking or doing what they are thinking and doing, no matter what it is. No, what you do is move from expressing the opinion (which I share) that "the kilt is not just [another] piece of clothing" to what seems a rather less than respectful (some might even say, insulting) disparagement of those who may genuinely regard their kilt wearing as an "'honor' thing" or "'flattery' thing" and to suggest even that their thinking is somehow "unsound" -- with perhaps the insinuation that yours is the truly sound position? It would not surprise me in the least if such people felt that their love of the kilt, its and their heritage and even their own reasoning powers had not in some way been insulted. Moreover, in order to be sound an argument or position must be logically valid and all its assertions true. I dare say that this whole discussion is so fraught with logical fallacies and false assertions as to render any claims about soundness to be themselves unsound. Any argument that tries to move from or equate citizenship with nationality or either of those with ethnicity, let alone ancestral pride, has committed some serious errors of ambiguity and relevance. You are of course entitled to your opinion -- you do indeed have a right to your "point of view," but having that right does not make your opinion or point of view right. If one seriously wants to make claims to having a soundly reasoned position, then one must appeal to objective facts presented in a logically valid way. Otherwise, all we have are expressions of personal emotion, understandable though they may be. There is a huge difference between saying "this is how I feel" and "this is the way it is -- or should be." I sincerely and genuinely respect your feelings but without a more soundly argued appeal to facts, I'm afraid that's all this is -- your expression of your feelings. They are important, you are entitled to them and I respect them; they do not, however, automatically trump the contrary views or feelings of others. Perhaps in the end all we can do is respectfully agree to disagree. In any case, Bless you Jock -- I sincerely appreciate your honesty and forthrightness.

[Blake Roth]

I am reminded of a lesson of history: sometimes those who go to Rome do what the Romans do and then surpass that; were notable invaders of the numerous wars in Ireland not known for "turning Turk/going native", as it were, and becoming more Irish than the Irish?
The Scots in general have a tremendously emminent reputation for numerous qualities that many, many wish to emulate as well. Those people attracted to the Scotic stereotype start on a very simplistic, easy-to-achieve premise that clothes make the man, I reckon. I'll admitt, even I hold to that; I just expound upon that to other advanced levels based on my personal appraisal of history here in the former provinces and my rank within the worldview I believe evolved from that and the sage advise offered here on Xmarks. Everyone has their own reasons and links theirs to that of the stereotype that they receive as their first take of what it is to be like a Scot.
Playing is, in the natural world, a process by which the young or un-initiated learn to gradually mature to function properly in the world, acquiring the necessary skills to thrive in life. Most of those who wear The Kilt and 'stumble' are just beginning; we here on the forum know this and understand this. Those competent individuals the world over are products of an atavism really, allow me to explain.
Just as my relations left the Ulster plantations centuries ago I can't really claim that the numerous Irish rebellions and independence affected them the same way as those who remained on the island. They cut themselves off in time and evolved socially by a different route. This point agrees with Jock's conclusion. But, those events have gravity to those who CARE about them; one common aspect I've found amongst the Kilties here is that to some extent, each is an amateur historian to some degree and takes great heed to know what he/she wears. Part of being human is that we can influence the environments in which we live and conversely, choose which environments effect us whether directly or indirectly. Fellow historically removed ex-pats and myself choose to "go native" the old way I believe, tastefully and not in the vein of the image espoused in George IV's reign. Those who cherish change and renewal as a part of the natural order, blend aspects of the two environments (I intimate UtiliKilts, their kin and the set of attire corresponding to them by this).
Anyone, regardless of birth, nationality, creed, or whatever can wear The Kilt. I like when others wear The Kilt like myself, but I hold the fact that not everyone does dearly; I hope that I never find myself a member of the majority. I, like others, revel in being among the unique. To everyone who wears The Kilt sincerely, no matter the style, The Kilt is NOT just a different choice for lower body wear, it's more than just a heritage factor, it's a choice at creating the individual and imparting meaning and substance.

Blake E. Roth Esq.

[Father Bill]

With caution folks. There's a lot of potential for hurt in some of these words. In fact, without wishing to discuss it, I'm one who's feeling it a bit. Just a word of caution, folks.

[Blake Roth]

I re-read my post too late after some editing to find this. I do not mean to say that Scots do not care about the impact of Scottish history, or that of the world, merely that the topic does not directly bear such a grand influence on their choice when and where to wear as it does to those non-native Scots around the globe. Those in the British Isles don't just believe in tradition, they live it. Tradition is a product of the course of history, but of a separate cord from whence those not within Scotland are influenced to wear and the manner in which they wear The Kilt. I stated distinctly after that that all who wear The Kilt are microcosmic historians and knowing history is caring for history! I am deeply sorry if that had come across; please accept my most humble apologies.

Blake E. Roth Esq.